Ranters room

[MCH]

Good rant Cloaked One!

I found it interesting that you panned Nu Who on a point of it having political correctness. Not that it doesn't have it in the stories. But Star Trek Voyager and all the other Star Treks are chock full of it. One sermon after another. Actually, I think there is more of that in Star Trek. Not to mention that political satire has been in shows and writings for like ever. That certainly is not a new subject.

As for multi colored spiffy looking Daleks, I think it is a good change. No sense in making them forever grey trash cans with egg beaters and plungers. Now if they started making them pink and purple with stickers plastered all over then I would turn the channel quick as lightening. I know that the Daleks enslave beings to do things for them. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to do squat for themselves. for such a powerful foe they certainly seem very vulnerable to a major workers strike, lol. So do the Cybermen come to think on it. Their cyber hands are kind of bulky.

As for the hooker part. Was it ever established that she was a hooker? What I saw was that she had a job dressing in different costumes. I'm trying to think of the companies that do that. Send people out to dance or sing or entertain/embarrass someone on their birthday or whatever. Semi strippers, lol. But they aren't true hookers.

I think that there is a lot of entertainment in the Nu Who. First there is the CGI and modern FX that really brings things to life. The new "saurans" are way cooler then the ones in Classic Who. Look that them compared to the old sea devils. More realistic looking and a whole lot more dexterity there. They don't just walk about stiff legged and bent armed. I used to love watching sic fi movies when I was young. Especially the dinosaurs because they were somewhat brought to life. But technology has advanced to bring us even better effects than before. Anything that can be imagined can now be brought to high definition "life". Woo Hoo!

Second is that we see more sides to the Doctors personality. He's not all about the superior male steriotype that he was in Classic Who. With meek and mild companions that screamed at the site of violence and needed his manly protection. Leela was a good counter to that. But the show still put her in skimpy animal skins. And while males generally go gaga for that, most women think it is belittling. Especially for a higher ranking part as the Doctors companion. Back then females were still regarded as second class citizens that needed the males to protect and provide for their every need. I'm glad that has changed in the Nu Who. However, I don't like the in your face, "I am woman hear me roar" crapola. That gets old really fast.

But, I can take Who new or old. I just really like the basic story.

MCH

[The Cloaked One]

Sorry for the reply being so long, I was a bit thorough. Because I like the show so much and its been in my family so long, I talk about it a lot.

I've heard Star Trek is and I've encountered a few such episodes in Voyager so far. The messages tend to be a bit more buried, less blatant. A type of story telling where the story comes first and the message is a consequence, though some episodes are quite blatant like 'Mortal coil.'
Nu Who does not know subtlety by any definition. When it wants to make a point, it hammers it in over and over and over again. That's the problem I'm citing. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to stand many other shows which contain political correctness and the sort.

The problem with the multi colored Daleks is that it is very much against the concept of Daleks, they're basic ideology. The reason Daleks were feared, they all looked the same. Similar to the Cybermen and the Borg. The Daleks were the monolith and they had supremacy, they destroy anything that is different. The Second Doctor gave ribbons to the Renegade Daleks because they had developed individuality. To have 5 Daleks like that can only mean trouble for the Daleks themselves. 5 individualized Daleks can easily start factions, there will probably be backstabbing starting with 4 siding against one.
Multi colored Renegade Daleks would've made sense. This, Davros should be sweating, or maybe even use it to his advantage to set them against each other. I'm not saying the writers will not make them work together with each having a designated function of some kind, but I feel that the overall principles of the Daleks in general will tear them apart.

Amy Pond was a kissogram. She was also a good thief both in the Space Whale episode and also keeping an eye on Churchill to make sure he didn't steal the Doctor's key. The Doctor also has a good sleight of hands, which always helps. The ever infamous trying to seduce the Doctor forcing him to bring Rory aboard. In general, her overall obsession with him to the point that people recognized the Doctor in his pilot because he was the childhood 'imaginary' friend of Amy's. Though, this turned out to be planned by the various species in the finale, though how much was forced and how much was her is debatable. She is my least favorite companion, River Song following closely behind with Mel.

CGI is CGI. Improved budget, awesome. I've been very tempted to make a parody on this. I cannot recall exactly anymore, but something like this: Doctor Who has gone where it has never gone before. (Show clips of the Aliens of London, the Earth 'ending' and other cool graphic scenes.) Witness its fantastic budget, but at what cost? (Show some of the really really dumb moments.) Now witness as the Doctor's most formidable opponent shall return. (Get a scene of the Doctor's head turning, a fade to him saying 'no' with a worried expression, possibly multiple Doctors) The return of Tin Foil! (the Tin Foil on strings suddenly crumples) I think it's angry. (The Doctor shouts, run)

The budget rarely ever bothered me in Old Who, the few times being the Third's mental battles in green space, the Fifth's regeneration, and a handful of other moments. I did not mind the fake dinosaurs in the Third's tenure, the tiny models, the paperclips, that never hurt the show. Instead, it gave the show a weird sort of charm to it. Old Who, both the actors, and the budget made it more like going to see a play at Vaudeville. Only a handful of props and very colorful characters.

[The Cloaked One]

Part II XP

I miss the old Doctor. I don't know when he fell into the 'superior male stereotype' though. He was mysterious, witty, charming, devious, and unpredictable. He did have times of suffering from pride, though not because he was male and he was just as often to chide the Brigadier as anyone else. The majority of his companions were female, some he would develop child/father relationships with, some he would befriend absolutely and treat as equals. I don't know about the fifth and seventh's tenures but there were many times that Sarah Jane would be left to get herself out of any messes she started. Jamie and Zoe often had that as well, Joe Grant had her amazing sneaking around a Dalek base scene. If they had truly needed the Doctor's manly protection, they ought have just listened to him and stayed put for a moment.

I don't want to mention Tegan too much, she would qualify more for what you were saying and I could not stand her. If you cannot listen to the Doctor and insist on getting yourself in trouble, then you've got to be able to get yourself out of it. And Tegan, never, never, never try and steal the Doctor's Tardis!

I never much cared for Leela's outfit. It just doesn't do anything for me. None of the female companions have ever been worth going gaga over, at least for me. It was her personality, her loyalty, and the fact that she was a good foil. Jamie was a good yes man, Romana was more a second Doctor to a degree and there should've been some very 'epic' serials during their time together to make up for the combined intelligence of them and k-9.

The Doctor is the main character, he has the most drive, strength, and personality. Most companions are never fully fleshed out, which is fine. From about the 5th on is where they started trying to diminish the Doctor some and have the companions stand out more. The Seventh Doctor's Ace was the first to start having the plot revolve around the companion. While the companion can be important, the titular character, the star of the show, is the Doctor and that ought to be the focus.

The fact that the Doctor was always grinning and bursting with confidence always kept the show optimistic and hopeful even in its darkest chapters, like Genesis of the Daleks. Nu Who, I quickly got tired of Tennant saying "I'm so sorry" and his being more prone to screw ups and accidents. The Fourth was prone to reflect occasionally, but seeing the Doctor brood and angst gets old after a while. Bring back Hopeful Who. Bring back the reassuring Doctor. He is not some street physician who is just as likely as heal you as accidentally remove the wrong organ; when he comes, expect a job well done and a few bodies.

For a balanced crew, there's Star Trek, Red Dwarf, Firefly (somewhat), and many many shows. For the Doctor, there's Doctor Who.

[MCH]

I see your point about the Daleks looking the same. Although even way back there were Daleks for certain tasks. Ones fitted with different tools for instance. But they were all grey. For me the creepiest thing about them was there manic craving for exterminating things. That crazed mechanical voice "exterminate!" but that would get tiresome after a while because they always did it. You see a Dalek, you hear the Dalek say the same thing, over and over and over. So, what would the Daleks do if they really did exterminate everything that was different from them? They would have to keep some alive to do things for them. And those beings would revolt eventually and the Daleks would either have to distroy them or let some go. It was only in watching Nu Who that I came to know that there were living creatures in those cans. And what horrific little buggers they are too.

Now, the Cybermen were creepy in how they would chop a brain out of a human and put it in a human looking mechanical suit. The supreme and ever lasting biomechantical human race. Lol, the Daleks and Cybermen were created by supreme psychopaths. The question is will either race be allowed to evolve? Should they?

I don't mind the old special effects at all. And yes they do have a certain appeal. But come on, you can't say that you don't get a kick out of good CGI. Couple that with good acting, well and a good story, and you have one kick bum of a flick. I've always been a sucker for animation and fx. I love to see fantastical things brought to life.

About the superior male thing. I meant that in the Nu Who era that sort of thing was the norm in almost every form of entertainment. That was just a reflection of how perceptions were. Men were men and ladies followed after. Though Star Trek had a female black officer In the sixties when blacks were still having to drink from different fountains and sit in the back of the bus. In being a kid I didn't see the significance of that. I just took it for what it was. A ship that travelled through space. Today I think wow, how bold was that? And how wonderful! I wish I would have known Doctor Who when I was young but I didn't. I really would have loved it. Oh well. But that is why I like the Nu Who. Because it is a cool show.

Well, I've got to stop and get dinner on. More later.
MCH

[The Cloaked One]

I forget how much Old Who you've seen. But, the Classic series showed what the Daleks looked like inside in their very first appearance. They also, I've heard, are in a state of constant pain which causes them to be full of hatred and anger.

There has never been a clear goal of what would happen if the Daleks did conquer all, it's never occurred, though the Daleks do not seem to mind having slaves from time to time. Even Davros with his complexes, did not mind working with other scientists and was upset to see the Daleks kill them in Genesis of the Daleks. So if the Daleks rule everything, I have no doubt that they will continue to strive to improve efficiency, keep slaves just to show off their superiority (if everything is exterminated then they are superior to nothing), and pass time crushing occasional rebellions and blowing up random planets from time to time. I liked the analogy of the Daleks to a virus, spreading and killing throughout the universe, but the virus does not kill everything.

As for Daleks evolving, nah. Daleks are good at adapting. One of my favorite Dalek episodes is Death of the Daleks, a bit silly, but really well done. When a race, such as the Daleks, Silurians, Cybermen are created. It's the usage of them, and sometimes not using them, that makes a good story. In old who, the Daleks had one appearance per two seasons, but even that was too much. Nu Who they have as many appearances as seasons. When a monster outlives its awesomeness, it needs to be shuffled into the background for a while, occasionally permanently, and a new creative species needs to be made. The Daleks, for me fall into the first category, remove them from Who for a while, they're pr is in the tubes. For my father, the latter. But then again, he was never a fan of Davros, considering it a bad move to have the leader of the Daleks revealed to be him. Doctor Who also has a plethora of other monsters to reuse on whim (royalties paid of course), and the ability to always generate more species.

The Cybermen were more or less ruined as fearful creatures from their very first serial. Every single appearance until Tom Baker, they were given a new, up to five new weaknesses per appearance including: their own weapons which apparently companions can take from them and shoot them with, emotion (drives them wild), cold temperature (makes them dormant), electricity, explosions, radiation rods, apparently gravity based technology as well, Mondus being destroyed, spray can instant plastic, solvents, Daleks, the ultimate warriors in the Five Doctors, Gold... and more. I do believe they were even weak to bullets in 'the Invasion,' a serial of the second Doctor's. What are they not weak to? They are stronger, but slower humans...that is about it... why did they become so popular? Well, the answer is simple. First, they are not known for their battle tactics or their strength, but their sneakiness and their devious nature. Their ability to sneak entire armies into places like the Army of Ghosts. Second, the audience has by and far considered Cybermen to be walking Daleks. Not literally, but yeah. Last of all, Tenth Planet, and large part of the Second Doctor's tenure are missing which would be most of the episodes where the Cybermen have all these weaknesses. What many fans have seen is only Tomb of the Cybermen which still has their weakness to the cold, and then from Baker onwards which is gold dust in the ventilation, Daleks, and the Warriors from the Five Doctors. And Nu Who. XD

Both species were designed during the first three years of Doctor Who, they've had 50 years now to come up with something new and exciting, i.e. the weeping angels and the Vasta Narada. The Sontarons were also a nice addition.

Back to what I was saying last post. I'm curious to know what is keeping the viewership up. The show is suffering from Old Who fans leaving, which I imagine was/is a large part of the audience, and Nu Who fans leaving due to continuity lockout, getting engrossed in Old Who, finding other exciting series on television. I'm still convinced that a huge block is old who fans who just want to ride the series out to the Thirteenth Doctor which is only another 40-50 episodes away. <- I'm in this group. XD Others might be genuinely enjoying it despite its low points, which I guess you fall into. It's got enough to keep going for now, but I still fear a premature ending if too many fans leave.

[The Cloaked One]

Dang, I wish I was not so wordy. There's gotta be a more direct way to talk without so many words. I'll try to be a bit more curt here.

Doctor Who has 20 million viewers last I heard. That's the size of the audience for House in America, but this comparison does not work. 20 million viewers in Britain is far more that 20 million viewers in America. They have become cocky because their quality is not worth 20 million views. The scripts are not the quality of NCIS, House, and other shows that have reached that level of viewership.

If they want to disown Old Who, the directors have to make a firm decision to do so. Nu Who from the start should not have been called Nu Who, it should've been called the Other Who (Bad joke) and picked another protagonist, some other renegade to follow with the Doctor supposedly dying in the Time War. This would reduce comparisons to the old series quite a lot. Second, they ought to quit deciding to bring in what they decide is worthy of Old Who back up front like the Silurians. Old Who gets the treatment of none of it mattered, dates, times, actions taken, until we say so (Time War) and not even then (Cracks in Time). They ought not have bothered using the Daleks, the Cybermen, the Silurians, or really any of them and just made new iconic monsters to use. This would improve the series immensely.

David Tennant has given Nu Who life. He has given the show a chance. While Eccleston had a bit of charm here and there, neither he nor Matt Smith have in them what Tennant brought out so casually. If the show is to survive, it needs another Tennant (not an impersonator >O) You know what I mean. The Script writing is not saving the show, its often undeveloped and sub par, the only hope is a winning personality at this point. Hopefully Moffat will step down and go back to only writing one serial per season, that is where he is best.

That's shorter, but still wordy. T_T

[MCH]

Lol, it's hard to keep up. But I don't mind a bit. Ya gotta say what ya gotta say.

Let's see here where was I? Well, I have to admit that I quickly got tired of them bringing back the Daleks so often. It seems like they would have a great build up to an event then a Dalek would appear.

Honestly, I think that the first of the Nu Who series was like an homage and nostalgia to old Who. A way for Classic Who fans to see their old friends again plus a way to bring newbies into the world of Who. but your right, they should have shown the old monsters sparingly and gone gung ho on building new ones.

I liked the Nu Silurians. Their toy guns were a bit goofy and I'm not sure about the tongue action. But they were sleek and cool and intelligent and mean in some instances. But it was a bit far fetched that they had lived under the earth for the whole of homiosapiens reign and never did anything. Also, a more resent Who had a bunch of "shadow" people living under, well in, the earth. How many more civilizations are down there? And why didn't they know about each other? Lol

Oh, I have only seen the Classic Who episodes once. A few I have watched again. And thru most of my viewing I was very I'll for a few weeks. And my memory isn't what it used to be so I can't recall all that I had seen. But I liked what I did see. That is why I joined this website. Well, I found this site looking for Who stuff. Peeked in and was delighted that Mr. Tom took an active role in his website. That's a very rare and cool thing for him to do.

I very much liked David Tennant in Who and I also liked his portrayal of Hamlet. As well as the small part he played in Harry Potter. But the more I read about Tom the more I thought that he was meant to play the Doctor. The part saved his life and became his life. And it still is a part of his life. He will always be remembered as The Doctor. Not a bad legacy IMHO. He touched a lot of people over the years. And they have touched him, lol.

As for NCIS, I watched a couple shows and wasn't impressed. Now House I like and have watched every episode. That's gotta be tough for Hugh Laurie to be separated from his family for so many years. Kinda sad. All for a television show. But I'm getting off track.

I remember seeing the inside of a Dalek shell in old Who. Didn't one of the companions sit inside a Dalek shell once? But that was after I had already seen an open Dalek shell in Nu Whu. I wasn't sure what to think of the Dalek human hybrid. He was kind of interesting and had potential but he wasn't Dalek enough so Kaput to him. Those pig slaves were strange. Why couldn't they have made dog slaves instead? Or chimp slaves.

The Cybermen in Nu Who could grow legs on severed heads and walked kind of like a spider. The legs coiled around Amy and tried to replace its old skull with hers. It also fired a weapon remotely. And moved it's body around remotely.

Well, it's time to hit the hay,

MCH

[tch]

Bunch of random thoughts:

If the scripts were as good as NCIS or House? Really? That's what passes for setting the bar high in TV writing?

They tried doing a new show that was cut off from Who history, it was called Torchwood and I think we all learned our lesson with that one.

The other comment about how new Who continuity gets ignored or monkey'd with, let's not grab the moral high ground there. I love old Who, but they played fast and loose with their own history.

It's not that the old stuff doesn't matter, but you try and make sense of Who history ( actually, don't really try it, your head will explode. Really, saw it happen to a guy.) if the old stuff didn't matter, they would have let the show die.
Personally, I've enjoyed the balance of new/old that the show has had and love that there is new Who that I can introduce my kids to, and then when they go "Sontarions are cool! are the any more Sontarion stories?" I can bring out the old stories and they can see where the show they love came from.
My son loves Tennant and Smith, but also loves McCoy and Tom Baker.

I love Who, both shows and all 11 Doctors, so a lot of this 'new vs old, pick a side,' mentality leaves me scratching my head.
Is either version perfect? No, 'Love and Monsters' meet 'Happiness Patrol'.
Did it peak with Tennant? Maybe. Time will tell and I'm sticking around till they put up the chairs and turn the lights off.

I think I'm done rambling. Hope there was a couple coherent thoughts in there.

[The Cloaked One]

Old Who is worth watching, it can be found online. The first four Doctor's are the best, 5-7 are a variable.

Very coherent. You guys don't ramble. I kinda go on a bit though. ^- MCH gets reprieve, only one sentence this time.

I have not seen Happiness Patrol, but there's also Earth Shock, Twin Dilemma, the Dalek Master Plan (a few very good episodes towards the end, but not very good otherwise), and several others. However, among the first four Doctors, there's very few 'bad' episodes. I just went season to season and enjoyed it all basically. Nu Who I have just not been able to.

Hopefully Doctor Who would not copy House scripts. XD I'm just citing other shows that have 20 million viewers in America which is still smaller in percentage than 20 million viewers in Britain watching Who (ignoring American peripheral audiences which is another 1-2 million) <- I'm in that number! !

What I'm trying to say is that there are many great shows that get hollowed out. McGyver was extremely popular, not so much in Britain because the Doctor already had been doing the shtick for quite some time already. Why did it end? Way too many very special episodes, sentient guns. Star Trek has collapsed on itself multiple times already. Xena Warrior Princess, Pretender, Red Dwarf... many many others. Not too many have been able to complete their stories often because the producers take over and change the direction of the series repeatedly. They do not have the audience in mind, its a sort of confidence that forms.

Doctor Who is a bit trickier than just that. It represents in many ways British culture and people, even those who do not personally watch the show, want to keep it going. Much like the Simpsons in America. It's been going 22 years. The writers have lost their creativity, a large part of their humor, and have long past the point where they arrogantly say, 'we can make any episode we want, the public will accept it.' Maybe not so arrogantly since they've gotten away with it for so long, but they do not have nearly what they had when they first started the series.

The point I was making about Nu Who was that they should have made a separate series that took place in the Who-verse. They made so many changes that they should've just kept going. This would remove most all criticism because it would be much easier to take as its own series.

Since it held up being the sequel of Old Who, following the Doctor, they got the Old Who fans to come along. They were largely and instantly given the large audience which the Old Show had slowly grown over a long period of time. They did not earn it, and they take it for granted thinking largely that the fans must just adore them and all their ideas. It would've been healthier to go the other route to earn it. But this is all old who fans have to work with and its been accepted as canon.

I've not seen a cultural show fall before. Who was not exactly cultural when it was canceled the first time, rather it increased in popularity due to all the books being written and that's what rose it to that status. Nu Who now runs with that status, I just worry that they will go to far which they have been wavering each and every season.

Old Who has bad serials, but not every single season. The Third Doctor only had I think a handful of serials that could've been improved on. Nu Who however: Bad Wolf/Parting of Ways, The Christmas Invasion, School Reunion, Love and Monsters, Fear Her, Doomsday (specifically), the Runaway Bride, Gridlock (they ruined the Macra Terror, one of my favorite serials from Old Who), The Sound of Drums/Utopia (First part was good), The Fires of Pompeii, Journey's End,The Waters of Mars, The End of Time, The Beast Below, and Victory of the Daleks.

Old Who: The Edge of Destruction, The Dalek Master Plan, The Dominators, The Daemons (More meh than bad, but a whole season of the Master was a bit much), The Green Death, Tom Baker's final season, Castrovalva, Four to Doomsday, Kinda (I quit watching Davidson at that point. Though I did enjoy the Five Doctors and the Caves of Androzani), the Twin Dilemma, Attack of the Cybermen, and Survival.
I have not seen much of the seventh Doctor, there's probably more to add (like Happiness Patrol from everything I've heard).
I've still not seen Season 6 of Nu Who.
I liked Trial of a Timelord largely due to the ending lightening things up. Doctor Who is a family show, keep the kids in mind! Also, I just liked the Valeyard though things did get a tad bit confusing. The thing to notice is that my list for Nu Who is about as long as Old Who's list which lasted hundreds of more episodes, that's a statement.

If you want, I can also state my favorite serials. XD

[tch]

We have reached an impasse, as the new serials in need of improvement were nearly all ones I liked.
Can't defend 'Fear her', but the rest...

so, we just going to have to agree to disagree.

I understand what you are trying to stay about Tv shows running out of steam, but all the ones you mentioned 'Who' has outlasted, and I really don't see it running out of steam.

During the wilderness years between shows, Who fandom was dying a slow death, but between the new show and Big Finish it's back and going strong and the new show and BF have gotten a bunch of the old Who actors back in the spotlight and getting the love they deserve.
How many other 60 year old women are getting their own TV show and seen as cool by young kids?

As I've said, I love it all, but am also aware of both shows flaws and as much as I don't see the old show as 'The golden age etc' I also don't see the new show as ' some abomination and an insult to all things Who etc'.

For tracking down old shows, I recommend nefflix. They carry stuff from all 11 Doctors. Between seasons of the new show I've started at the beginning and am watching my way through the show. Made it to the Pertwee years.
My son just gets anything with Dalek in the title and his current favorite is the 7th.