Is All Religion Just Fiction?

[Prydonian]

I am bowing out of this discussion as all of you like to make fun of another person's beliefs. There is a saying for that too. Don't cast your pearls before swine. Make of that what you will.
I will say prayer does work, so sorry Clara your comment is inaccurate and won't stop me from speaking the truth. Clearly you do not believe in God or prayer or anything so why waste further time on you? Maybe I like to believe there is hope even in a closeminded individual such as yourself.
God is a divine personage and as such is not everywhere, your thinking of the Holy Spirit. Which does His bidding. Prayer brings you closer to God through the Holy Spirit. Nothing about God is laughable or ridiculous, and predestination is NOT a valid God concept, man came up with that one. We already covered the fact that man made religion does not always reach into true spirituality. Not everything is foreordained, there is something called free will. God respects that and as such never forces anyone to come to Him or read the Scriptures or accept Jesus as the Christ. The Bkble may have its faults and be incomplete, but it does plainly testify of the Son of God.
Ive said all I am going to on here about this. You are mostly all closeminded and that makes it difficult to have a decent conversation with you.

[Clara Listensprechen]

I started out being a believer in only one Christian religion. Then I discovered other Christian denominations. I was once like you are, and then made discoveries--not only about how there's no central Christian belief outside of a basic belief in a Christ whose name is Jesus. Beyond that, there is no belief authored by any central divine authority. There are a bazillion different versions of Bibles as well, and the excuse is that they're all "translations"; this excuse overlooks the significance of the process called Standardization, a process which admits that there is no central single divine source for any of it.

And then I actually READ a Bible, cover to cover, consecutive pages. And then I read another version of Bible--that alone was enough to show that there's no such thing as a singularly Divine-inspired man-written book. None.

I became an agnostic at that point, recognizing that no religions were genuine but that there might be some sort of Creator-in-chief somewhere. And then I researched the history of the Roman Empire, the Persian Empire, and the various Mithraic kingdoms sandwiched in between and discovered that all Bibles are political documents engineered to flatter the state. And there was a lot of departure from history of record. A LOT.

I now have a library of different Bibles, each containing the different pieces of information I've imparted here and which served to form my current opinion. And then there are the theological anomalies which don't make sense to me...first and foremost the deal with predestination vs free will, as that constitutes a paradox among those who believe in both. There's the contradictions Jesus himself is on record of uttering against the Trinity concept, and the quotations of the Book of Enoch although the Book of Enoch doesn't exist in a Bible.

There's the matter of believing in an almighty, omniscient, ever-present God who nonetheless "tests" people even though an omniscient would already know the outcome of the test in question, which makes the test pointless....this and other theological nonsense brings a chuckle from me every time, because, quite frankly, a lot of it is just plain silly.

And without reason. Therefore I'm not surprised that the unreasonable will not be reasoned with in matters of religion..."God said it, I believe it, that settles it" is as good as ya get with such people.

[Clara Listensprechen]

What? Clara is still with us?

I felt sure she would be one of the chosen!

Yeah riiiiiiiiiight.

I was chosen to be Left Behind so that I could eat your lunch, snatch your bank account and live in your house.

[Clara Listensprechen]

Predestination, that's the word I was looking for.
Nice thing about hanging around this site. So many Who fans have extensive vocabularies.

Course, with predestination, it also makes you wonder why people go on about miracles.If it's all part of the plan, it's not a miracle, it's just 'step #128' or whatever.

Besides that, there's the common claim that God predestinating his son to get tortured to death was some sort of vicarious sacrifice for the rest of us, like God couldn't simply say "I forgive mankind". Well, if he rose from the dead, where's the sacrifice? And what kind of God demands blood sacrifice anyway? Not any kind of Bronze Age barbarian God you'll catch ME worshiping, I can firmly assure you.

[pattie anne]

dear forum posters -

today i wish to deal primarily with the terms free-will and predestination as put forth in the New Testament, Paul's Letters and writings, and the teachings of what Baptists believe and why.

every human being on the planet has free-will (except for the severally retarded and they are protected as children who have not reached the age of accountability as far as God is concerned). this means that once you have the mental acumen to understand the Roman road to salvation, and it has been presented to you; it will be held against you if you free-will choose to ignore the ONLY WAY OUT of eternal damnation God has given us. remember i said once before, the miracle is not that God permitted one way out for His fallen men, but that He ever allowed any way out for us to receive the just punishment of our sins.

predestination as defined by Paul is not the philosophy that God created a world, and created sinful men, so He could later destroy them all (except for a few chosen ones) but rather Paul was talking about an attribute of God where He is at the same TIME:

existing BEFORE the CREATION of the universe -
at the creation of the universe-
at Calvary (Golgotha) where He had to turn His eyes from His Son because Jesus took the sins of the entire world on His shoulders, thus a perfect God could not look upon that sin-
at the sacking and burning of rome-
at the signing of the declaration of independence -
at my conversion as a child of ten in a small missionary baptist church in pomona, ca-
at this very moment, on TOM's forum-
at the end of the universe -
and existing AFTER the end of the universe-

true, it is very, VERY hard for our small, finite minds to wrap itself around such a concept, but when reason can't fill in the blanks, faith can. but the way i understand it, God knows the past-present-future not because He is some super-fortune teller, but because He exists at all points in what we count as TIME simultaneously. this is how He has predestined us to His eternal service. it is because The Father knows everything already, and nothing comes as a surprise to Him, nor is ANYTHING outside of His influence. this is how Paul meant the use of this word. (like this is the ONLY word that has 'moore' than one clear definition in the world? - many Christian churches today teach a meaning of predestination that i do not agree with.)

as for the matter of the three heavens i already explained that, but in way of a review, in case some one might have been elsewhere:
1) the air
2) space - the final frontier (the universe)
3) heaven

love,
pattie anne

PS: finally have my new glasses, but so far they have only caused me one re-occurring headache. so even though i can't see worth a shukie durn any'moore' figured my mind and my mouth ARE still working, so saw no reason to not return into the fray. however, will carefully read and reread my copy for any spelling errors, but apologize early, in case they are here.

P. a.

[Forum Moderator]

Dear Members

We're glad to see so many of you contributing to this topic and enjoying the debate, but it has become so heated that one member has left the forum. That's one we know about - but there may be others who have quietly gone away.

Peoples' beliefs are very personal, and are held very close to their hearts and emotions, so please be tolerant and polite about beliefs which are different from your own. Your comments may actually upset or offend others if expressed too emphatically.

I'm sure you do not want me to lock the topic, but if the atmosphere does not improve, I will have to do so as we cannot have Tom's Forum spoilt by an over zealous discussion of a topic which is not the main subject of his Forum.

Forum Moderator

[Graceful Leonard]

one member has left the forum

Again?

They'll be back.

[Clara Listensprechen]

This sort of stance always leave non-believers in the dust, for many of the reasons NOT to believe are taken offense at by believers, invariably.

For example, I believe that the Eucharist is ritualized cannibalism and I believe that God was a bad God for committing the Passover, because many progeny got the death penalty for a transgression they themselves did not commit while the committer of the transgression continued without personal penalty.

If tolerance is the rule here, tolerance for these beliefs should also be considered regardless of who might take offense, for these are beliefs of equal standing to anyone else's beliefs.

Insofar as Tom commented on this topic in public presentation, it also remains a Tom topic.

[Forum Moderator]

My words of caution were directed at both sides of this debate – not particularly at one side. However, both sides have had more than ample opportunity to express their views most fulsomely and people are getting upset, so I am now locking this topic. Please let’s allow time for reflection and avoid this subject for a while.

It is indeed a subject on which Tom has expressed his views in the past, but he, too, will avoid it for a while on the Forum, so please, no questions in the Question Room on this subject in the next few months.

Forum Moderator