Is All Religion Just Fiction?

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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby Clara Listensprechen on April 27th, 2011, 4:20 am

pattie anne wrote:Dear Clara Listensprechen -
...
And not go all negative on you, but for the moment, there are two things that aggrivate me about humanists in general, and religion in specific.

One: To many people's way of thinking, all Hitler had to do was to put a bullet in his head, and it was all over. No punishement, no accounting, NOTHING.

Non sequitur. Secular humanists have nothing to do with Hitler, and Hitler has nothing to do with secular humanists. That's some more swallowing of False Witness on your part, and repeating it, causing yourself to be the bearer of False Witness. It would be wise to examine what witness you bear to ensure none of your witness is false.
A perfect, righteous GOD who created the Universe would not, could not stand for this.

A perfect, righteous God who created the universe wouldn't stand for every firstborn in a nation to get the death penalty to pay for the actions of a pharaoh, whom God let off scott free of direct punishment, so don't preach to me about how perfect and righteous your God is. Happy Passover! ....as if such a God-committed atrocity as Passover ever was intended to be happy. Abraham's God is the worst sort of child abuser, especially when it came to his own son--and had the chutzpah to call that "love".
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby Clara Listensprechen on April 27th, 2011, 4:40 am

pattie anne wrote:...
and Two: The pure colossal conceit of folks who think they know just everything about everything and can say unequivocally that there is no God. No human being anywhere can say that as we just do not know enough to say that. At best, all we can say is that maybe there is no God.

Actually it's an improvement on the conceit of folks who believe in a book they don't really read who claim to believe in a God that this book is supposedly all about...while ignoring the differences in the different versions of that same book under the conceit that their favorite version is superior to everybody else's versions. Human beings don't need to be able to encompass a universe in order to view it, analyze it, collect data on it, so one doesn't need a Godlike capacity in order to prove or disprove a God In General. As to Abraham's God, any given Bible contains enough proof that Abraham's God does not exist. Reading 2 different version of Bible is sufficient to make an atheist out of the best of us.

I used to be a believer; I was raised a believer. And then I actually read a Bible--I became agnostic. Then I read two. And now I'm an atheist. Further, the barbaric conduct of Abraham's God is such that I can say that it matters not to me whether he does or does not exist. I refuse to believe in a God like that in any case. I'm too good and too civilized to even give that God the time of day, much less bow or worship such a scoundrel.
At best, all we can say is that maybe there is no God. Our vast combined knowledge of all the ages is just too puny to say more than that. And yet the athesists and humanists seem to have no problem in espousing exactly that.

It's a tired argument, that. So is the argument that one can never prove a negative, despite the fact that mathematicians regularly prove negatives, as do sleuths when the rule suspects out. People who solve sudoku puzzles prove negatives--one cannot solve one without proving negatives. One can rule out a God as well--your beliefs just prevents you from recognizing that fact as you believe it to be impossible. It isn't.
Still, enough of these and those. I've had my daily vent. Back to the really interesting things.

Archeologists are always finding new data and rediscovering old trade routes/cities/ETC. Remember, Troy was very much a legend until Heinrich Schliemann found it, and discoveries are being made at this amazing ancient city's site, even as we speak. Now, specifically RE the city of Nazareth:

Dang! My data is going to take more room to present than I have left in this Post, so I will begin with it next time.

Love,
Pattie Anne :geek:


You won't find anything (authoritative) on any Nazareth preceding the Crusades. As for other archaeology, I bring to your attention that every Civil War event that occurred in the novel "Gone With The Wind" has been verified by archaeology too. But it's still fiction.
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby pattie anne on April 27th, 2011, 4:56 am

dear Clara Listensprechen -

have been doing a lot of research today, and i think i finally understand where you are coming from, and where i was in error.

it appears there is and was a 1611 KJV which is available for anyone to read on line. i can give you the URL if you wish. this is the version with the Apocrypha as part of it.

then in 1769 it was "standardized" and came out as the AUTHORIZED King's James Version. (aka AV.)

and it appears that this KJV is the one that is used by most English speaking Christians today. though I did find some scholars arguing even THAT point. :?

but all of this really isn't here nor there, as i stated earlier, that if God wanted me to read/study/and live by His words today, He would also have put an inerrant, God-breathed copy of His words into my hands. and there is no doubt in my mind that is exactly what He has done.

but i still want to check out my sis-in-law's copy to see the date on it, as it did say it was the KJV. and when i have the time want to read the 1611 AND the 1769 versions on-line. as well as check out your version(s). but i have this gut feeling, going into my studies of the different texts, that the really important things like:

SALVATION is though the blood of Christ, and Christ alone, not by works (joining a church - getting baptized - ETC.) and that it can not be lost, and Jesus IS the only way for all of mankind

God is a triune God

there is a heaven and a hell (literally)

you know, ALL the basic DOCTRINES will be there and are intact, no matter which/whose edition of the KJV it is.

love,
pattie anne :geek:

PS: oh, gee, got side tracked again. still, will put what i can on this Post, and finish it with the next one maybe, perhaps. BIG SIGH . sure don't want to waste all that lovely research on Nazareth that I found.

Nazareth

Jesus grew up in Nazareth, which was a very small village near the Plain of Esdralon in Galilee. Although it is not mentioned in the Old Testament, there have been excavations revealing settlements in the area dating back to the Bronze Age, and tombs dating from the iron age to the Hasmonean period. The Biblical narrative reveals that Joseph and Mary lived here after their betrothal, in the announcement of Jesus' birth came to Mary here in Nazareth (Lk 1:26). Joseph made his living here as a carpenter possibly because it was near Sepphoris, a Hellenistic city being built by Herod Antipas.

Jesus left here at age 30 to be baptized by John (Mk 1:9), and returned to Nazareth before beginning his public ministry (Matt 4:13) and was violently rejected by the people of His town, and thus He moved on to Capernaum (Lk 4:16-30). There is no mention of Him ever returning back to His home town of Nazareth, but he was always identified with it (Matt 21:11), having been called a "Nazarene" which comes from the Hebrew root meaning "branch", in accordance with the promises made to David that King Messiah would be a descendant (branch) from the royal line of King David.

Nazareth was right on the Roman Road to Jerusalem and therefore contact with the whole known world could be made from this small village. In Jesus' time there is a synagogue located there (Lk 4:16), and Jews were living there after the destruction of the second Temple. Eusebius makes mention of a small village called Nazareth in the 4th century A.D. It's first church was built they are during the Time of the Emperor Constantine.

CONTINUED NEXT POST
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby Clara Listensprechen on April 27th, 2011, 5:10 am

Point of information: Standardization began in the mid to late 1800's, primarily to deal with America's various versions, not the least of which was the Jeffersonian Bible. The authorization for the King James version came from King James himself, which basically outlawed the use of any other version of Bible in the empire (Geneva version specifically targeted).
Last edited by Clara Listensprechen on April 27th, 2011, 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby pattie anne on April 27th, 2011, 5:11 am

Thank you. Now, the Jefferson Bible THAT was an interesting (for want of a better word) one! :shock:

Other notes on Nazareth from other sources:

"Nazareth is like a rose, having the same rounded form, enclosed by mountains, as the flower is by leaves."

NAZARETH pronounced nad-zar-et and possible means "the guarded one." Harpers defines it separated; crowned; sanctified.

Strongs # 3478 in the Greek NT Dictionary.

KJV uses the term Nazareth.

Location and Scenary:
The little town of Nazareth was one of the most beautiful places in all of Galilee. It is situated on the most southern of the ranges of lower Galilee, among the hills which are referred to as the south ridges of Lebanon, just before they sink down into the plain of Esdraelon (about 10 miles away). A rocky gorge descends southward to a plain between two craggy hills.
It was situated on the southeast slope of a hollow pear shaped basin, which descends gradually from the elevated plateau 1500 feet above sea level and opens out through a steep winding way (the stem of the pear) into the plain of Esdraelon, 1000 feet lower.
It is a secluded village lying in a basin, surrounded by the Nazareth limestone hills, which were said to "rise round it like the edge of a shell to guard it from intrusion."
On the hill five hundred feet above the town, a most wonderful panorama opens to view of the beauties and historic scenes of the land.
To the north one could see the plateaus of Zebulun and Naphtali, and the mountains of Lebanon with snow-covered Hermon towering above them all
To the west one could see the coast of Tyre and the blue waters of the Mediterranean.
From a hilltop in Nazareth one could see Mt. Carmel, the historic scene of the struggle of Elijah with the prophets of Baal.
To the south one could see Megiddo and the whole plain of Esdraelon which was the scene of many of the most memorable battles of Israel, to Tabor and the hills of Gilboa where Saul and Jonathan lost their lives. Mt. Ebal and the land of Shechem in the background with the uplands of Gilead and Samaria.
To the east, across the sea of Galilee and the Jordan Valley, Gilead and Jaulan with Tabor, the Mountain of Bashan.
At the foot of the hill passed the Roman road, "the Way of the Sea," which connected the ancient city of Damascus with the Mediterranean sea-ports.
To the south there was a road that went all the way to Egypt.
A mile and a half away was the caravan route to Jerusalem
The town itself was built of the white limestone from the quarries of the calcerous mountains which encircle the basin.
Sepphoris, the capital of Herod Antipas and strongest military center in Galilee, was only five miles to the northwest across the rolling hills.
Tiberias, Capernaum, Bethsaida and other towns were only a few miles away on the margin of the Sea of Galilee; and even Jerusalem itself was not a great distance from Jesus' home in Nazareth.
"You cannot see from Nazareth the surrounding country, for Nazareth lies in a basin; but the moment you climb to the edge of this basin . . . what a view you have. Esdraelon lies before you, with its twenty battlefields-the scenes of Barak's and of Gideon's victories, of Saul's and Josiah's defeats, of the struggles for freedom in the glorious days of the Maccabees. There is Naboth's vineyard and the place of Jehu's revenge upon Jezebel; there Shunem and the house of Elisha; there Carmel and the place of Elijah's sacrifice. To the E the valley of Jordan, with the long range of Gilead; to the W the radiance of the Great Sea. . . . You can see thirty miles in three directions" (Smith, Hist. Geog., p. 432).
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby Clara Listensprechen on April 27th, 2011, 5:14 am

Regardless, it didn't exist prior to the Crusades. Jesus was born in Bethlehem and then established himself in Capernaum. No Nazareth. Like Sampson, Jesus was a nazorite.
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby pattie anne on April 27th, 2011, 5:20 am

Nazareth is not mentioned in the OT or by Josephus, although the presence of a spring and the convenience of the site make it probable that the place was occupied in old times. However, it is mentioned in the New Testament:

1) To be called a "Nazarene" was having an evil reputation (Matthew said this was in accord with the prophecy of Isaiah 53) and pictures the Messiah as a "root springing up out of the dry ground."
2) One of the most well known names for the Messiah among the Jews was Tsamech or Branch, based on Isaiah's prophecy (Isa 11:1). The word Netzer is the exact equivalent. The title Nazarene not only stood for the reproach which Jesus bore, but was a fulfillment of Messianic prophecy. He was a Branch (Netzer) sprung out of David's roots.
3) It is within the limits of the province of Galilee (Luke 4:29)
4) Nazareth was the home of Joseph and Mary (Luke 2:39)
5) It was where the angel announced to Mary the birth of the Messiah (1:26-28).
6) It was where Joseph brought Mary and Jesus after the sojourn in Egypt (Matt 2:19-23).
7) It was where Jesus grew up to manhood for about 30 years (Luke 4:16)
He was therefore called Jesus of Nazareth. His disciples were known as Nazarenes.
8) In Nazareth Jesus first taught in the synagogue (Matt 13:54; Luke 4:16)
9) The evil reputation attached to Nazareth (John 1:46) has generally been attributed to the Galileans' lack of culture and rude dialect. Nathanael, who asked, "Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?" was himself a Galilean. He may have said that because Nazareth was such a common term of contempt among the more "righteous" Jews in Judea.
10) In Nazareth, Jesus preached His first recorded sermon (Luke 4:16 ff).
11) Once Jesus finished preaching about the Kingdom of God and the Nazarenes became violent. "He did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief" (Matt 13:58) and He made His home in Capernaum.
12) Nazareth is near Cana, where Jesus turned the water into wine (Mark 1:9)

Other Information about Nazareth:

- Scholars believe there were approximately 15,000 to 20,000 inhabitants during the time of Christ.
- Most of the houses were very similar in style even with the rich and poor.
- A bountiful spring furnished the water supply for the whole population and was a favorite place.
- All Classes of people for Jesus to observe lived/worked there (home, weddings, funerals, the carpenter shop, synagogue, etc.)
- His childhood days brought innumerable illustrations for His later teachings such as the leaven hid in three measures of meal, women grinding at the mill, sowing and reaping, the sparrow and the lily, the children in the market place. Educators often say that the child learns more in the first three or four years than in all the rest of life.
- Nazareth was secluded by its natural location but it was not cut off from the outside world.
- All the inhabitants of Galilee were looked upon with contempt by the people of Judea because they spoke a cruder dialect, were less cultivated and were more exposed by their position to contact with the heathen.
- Quaresimus learned that the ancient name was Medina Abiat, in which we may recognize the Arabic el-Medinat el-baidtah, "the white town." Built of the white stone supplied by the limestone rocks around, the description is quite accurate.
- There is a reference in the Mishna (Menachoth viii.6) to the "white house of the hill" whence wine for the drink offering was brought.
- An elegy for the 9 th of Abib speaks of a "course" of priests that settled in Nazareth.

Later History:

- Near this town Napoleon once encamped (1799), after the battle of Mount Tabor.

Modern Nazareth:

- It lies right between the Sea of Galilee and the Mediterranean at Haifa.
- The modern name is en-Nazirah, which is built mainly on the western and northwestern slopes of a hollow among the lower hills of Galilee, just before they sink into the plain of Esdraelon.
- It belongs to the better class of eastern villages. It has a population of about 7,000; some Muslims, and the rest are Latin and Greek Christians.
- There is one very remarkable hilltop, almost perpendicular and near the Maronite church, which may well be supposed to be the identical one where the angry Nazarenes attempted to hurl Jesus off from.
- A Jewish community has settled on the heights above the city.
- Tourism is very important to the economy.
- The chief attraction of Nazareth is the new Church of the Annunciation (1966) built on the traditional site of Mary's house, which is shown under the church.This church replaced an earlier one built in 1730, which in turn was constructed on the site of a twelfth-century Crusader church. Nearby is the Church of St. Joseph (constructed in 1914), which stands on the traditional site of Joseph's carpenter shop (located below the church). Between the two churches is a Franciscan monastery.
- It is the chief market town for the pastoral and agricultural district that lies around it.
- The only site in Nazareth that can be definitely identified as dating back to New Testament times is the town well, now called St. Mary's Well, which has provided water for the village from the first century to the present day.

And finally :

- The location of the ancient site of Nazareth is now very certain.

Anyone wishing to view a very nice New Testament map, please PM me. I tried to shrink it to put it up here with this Post, but when I did, the town names were so small that you couldn't read them. However, according to it, if you bisect the Sea of Galilee and head toward the Mediterranean Sea you will pass right though the town of Nazareth.

Love,
Pattie Anne :geek:

PS: Being a Nazarene is NOT the same thing as being a Nazarite. Jesus was the former, but not the latter.
P. A.

2PS: Phew! Told you I spent all day on this! 8-) Nite-nite.
P.
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby tch on April 27th, 2011, 11:52 am

speaking for the atheists: we don't say there is no god, we say there is no proof there is a god.
We then decided to get on with our lives, while we waited for the people making the claim to give us that proof.

and all the religious folk do is keep showing us the same book over and over. Which would be great except it contradicts itself, has been heavily edited and is of questionable scientific/ historical accuracy.
That's not proof, that's wikipedia.

Atheists aren't conceited, we are annoyed at having to listen to this stuff for the past couple of centuries. Of being talked down to by a group of people that can't get their story straight or live up to their own rules in their own handbook.
and if I'd had my coffee, that might not have sounded quite so grumpy.
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby pattie anne on April 27th, 2011, 2:09 pm

dear tch -

you mean sort of like you can't prove creationism or evolution? one just picks up a set of beliefs and hopes and educated guesses as we travel through this old world?

nope, does not contradict itself. not if one studies it over a life time, reading it and rereading it, praying over it, meditating on its words, and seeking out the wiser saint when a particular passage is puzzling.

the Bible is not a science book, thought science is certainly in it, especially in the book of Job. nor is it a history book, though pages and pages of the history of man, and one particular chosen race runs thought it. it is a book about ONE man starting in Genesis as He walks and talks with Adam and Eve in the garden, and it ends with His final victory in Revelation. and that man is Jesus the Christ.

can't show you a different book, only ONE is the inspired word of God. St. Paul said if anyone, man angel or who ever teaches a different doctrine other than Jesus Christ crucified, it is false.

and i can't speak for all Christians, just one of them. and i do tell the SAME story over and over again to anyone who will listen. i take them down the very same Roman Road that i was taken down over 55 years ago.

and what you say IS very true, i fail miserably my Master every day of my life. for although i am forgiven by Him i still live in this sinful, corrupted body in a fallen, turned from God world. best i can do is to just TRY to sin-less. and serve Him in every way i can. and then when i do fall, which will happen, as i am still very human, i have someone i can go to, to ask for His forgiveness. for the Bible says a righteous man may fall down over and over again, but then he picks himself up and continues his race. not perfectly, that will come later, but just in the best way he can.

and grumpy is OK, i understand, just makes you human. i get grumpy on the odd occasion too, though i NEVER drink the coffee. ;)

dear clara -

so what do you think will happen to the likes of the Hitlers and the pedifiles and the murderers and the other nasties that live and have lived among us, one day? I know! [not I think so, not I hope so, but I know so] exactly, precisely, as it tells all in The Book.

Non sequitur. Secular humanists have nothing to do with Hitler, and Hitler has nothing to do with secular humanists. That's some more swallowing of False Witness on your part, and repeating it, causing yourself to be the bearer of False Witness. It would be wise to examine what witness you bear to ensure none of your witness is false.


you missed the part where i included other relgions that do not belive in a literal hell, as well as the secular humanists, so i wasn't just singling them out. i know that not all of them are nillists. and as for me being a false witness, if that is what you wish to label me, go right ahead, as the Lord said that the world will hate you because of what you teach and witness, as it hated me first, for the same reason, testimony and witness.

love,
pattie anne :geek:
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby Graceful Leonard on April 27th, 2011, 4:55 pm

Dear Pattie,

Something I'd like to ask you, if I may. Being someone who takes the bible literally, how do you feel about the ideal in western society now of equality for women, gay people and so on? How do you reconcile this with what the bible says. After all, it is a good thing that we treat all people equally, isn't it?

GL
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