Is All Religion Just Fiction?

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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby Clara Listensprechen on April 9th, 2011, 6:49 pm

pattie anne wrote:dear graceful leonard -

...

RE John. John was the son of Zebadee, so was his brother James. they were fishermen of Capernaum. John wrote Revelations, the Gospel of John, and the letters John I, II and III. you are trying to make hard what is easy and simple.

It would be if that was correct. It isn't. As I said, the writer of the Gospel talked about John bar Zebedee as a person separate from himself when he observed the two brothers (James and John) from afar. Given that other Gospels refer to John bar Zebedee as an Apostle, it follows that the Gospel writer was not. Further, a different John wrote Revelation.
There are a lot of Johns running around in The Bible, which is the very reason we use the term "John" to refer to unidentified dead men, clients of hookers, etc. It's also Gospel writer Mark's other name. No surprise that John is also used to refer to the loo, a type of pastry, and a type of underwear. ;)
And the apostles were just human beings, men just like the ones walking around on the earth today. not some super creation. Jesus was the only divine one among them. what does make them special and entitled to 12 thrones, and special powers, is their relationship with The Christ. NOTHING in of of themselves.

So when Jesus told Peter that whatever he bound on earth would be bound in heaven, he was lying. Got it.
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby pattie anne on April 9th, 2011, 7:30 pm

That was merely John's way of speking about himself, I told you he was a humble man.

Jesus can not lie, He is God.

If Jesus gave Peter powers He gave them to him. Period.

But Peter was born a man, was just a man, he lived his entire life as a human being, and died a man. he was just in a state of Grace when he joined His Lord in heaven.

Oh yes, before I forget again ...

How I Know The King James Version 1611 Bible is the Word of God, Because ...

1) God Promised to Preserve His Words

Psalm 12:6-7 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 100:5 that ". . . . his truth endureth to all generations," and Jesus said in John 17:17 that God's WORD is truth.
These words state very clearly that God's preserved word MUST be available to us today, because God PROMISED to preserve it for us. There MUST be an infallible Book somewhere.

2) The Authorized Version Was Translated Under A God-Ordained English King

the other versions have been mostly translated in America, which is not a monarchy. God's form of government is a theocratic monarchy, not a democracy. therefore, it makes perfect sense that His word would be translated for the English speaking people under a monarchy with an English king. I know the King James Bible is the word of God because it was translated under a king.

3) It Has No Copyright

and as such is available to all, anywhere on earth.

4) God Always Translates Perfectly

the words "translate" and "translated" occur three times in the Bible, and GOD is the Translator each time. the scholars insist that the KJV cannot be infallible, because it is "only a translation." do you suppose that such scholars have checked II Samuel 3:10, Colossians 1:13, and Hebrews 11:5 to see what GOD has to say about translating?

5) It Produces Good Fruit

Our Lord Jesus said that every good tree will bring forth good fruit, and we can know them BY their fruits (Mt. 7:17-20).

4) The King James Translators Believed They Were Handling the Very Words of God

5) All (or most of) the New Translations Especially Compare Themselves to the KJV

6) Of the Time in History in Which It Was Translated

this is an extremely important point as the King James Bible was not translated during the apostate and lukewarm Laodicean church period, like the new translations. [The Laodicean period is the last church period before the Second Coming of Christ. It is the last of the seven church periods in Revelation chapters two and three. One can clearly see that we are living in the Laodicean period today by simply comparing modern churches to the church of Revelation 3:14-22.]

this lukewarm period began toward the end of the 1800's and will continue until Christ returns. the new versions fit well into the lukewarm churches, because they are lukewarm "bibles."
the Authorized Version, however, was translated LONG BEFORE the Laodicean churches appeared. It was translated during the Philadelphia church period, which is the best church period of all. it was this church that the Lord Jesus COMMENDED for KEEPING HIS WORD( Rev. 3:8-10)!

7) Of the Manuscript Evidence

there's only one line of manuscripts that we can trust, and this is the line from Antioch, called the "Syrian" or "Byzantine" type text. The word of God speaks POSITIVELY of Antioch, and NEGATIVELY of Rome and Egypt.

8) No One Has Ever Proven That the KJV is Not God's Word

though they certainly have tried.

9) IT Exalts the Lord Jesus Christ

a REAL Bible will testify of the Lord Jesus Christ. the true word of God will always EXALT Jesus Christ, and it will NEVER attack His Deity, His Virgin Birth, His Blood Atonement, His Bodily Resurrection, His Glorious Second Coming, or any other doctrines concerning His Person. however, the new versions especially attack ALL of the fundamental doctrines concerning the Lord Jesus Christ at one time or another.

and shuckie durn, you would think i could come up with a 10th point.

still i can send you a complete dissertation, which is quite lengthy, mostly when it speaks about other translations (manuscripts) but my point here is to explain to you (and to others) WHY i believe as i do. you can say you don't agree, you can argue with me about this point or that point. but the point here is, that these are my reasons for believing as i do in the KJV and i see each and every one of them as being valid and true.

Now about Joses (or Joseph)

he is the second of the brothers of Jesus appearing in the New Testament. Joses is first mentioned in Mark 6:3, which related people talking about Jesus:
"Is he not the carpenter, the son of Mary, and the brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us? And they took offense at him."
Joses also appears in Mark 15:40, which mentions among the women present at Jesus' crucifixion "Mary, the mother of James the Less and Joses".

James and Jude wrote the bible books that bear their names.

James the Less only appeared on one list? i've only found one verse in the entire Bible that says there were female angels, but that's enough for me to believe in them. and i can use a jewish scholar RE my Pi argument as half my Bible is jewish. as is my Saviour. and the OT accuracy is equal to the NT one.

but as you don't believe in either one, why should it matter to you?

what your perfectly logical philosophy of reason (VS one of FAITH) offers is NO HOPE. so how it that superior to my JOY my PEACE and my lack of FEAR in the here and now, and my HOPE in an eternity with my Lord and Savior in the hereafter?

love,
pattie anne :geek:
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby Graceful Leonard on April 9th, 2011, 7:47 pm

pattie anne wrote:
if i could ask one thing of you, however. could you give me an example of a fundamental discrepancy. or i could use the one our minister gave us at our weekly "Dig and Dine with Bro. Larry," last night at Bible study.



I'm sorry to say, Pattie, that I'm far too ill-informed to offer anything worthy of your discussion. All I can say is that, speaking as a neutral, I've seen a lot of evidence, from respectable sources, highlighting discrepancies in the order and translation of text, and conflicting archaeological evidence for biblical accuracy. There are, for me, also logical conclusions to be drawn about why these discrepancies exist. For example, the story of Adam and Eve as we know it -- some scholars say that this was never originally at the beginning of the bible, and that Adam was not intended to represent the first man, rather a king whose downfall was due to his own hubris. This seems logical to me because among other things Eve offers a perfect tool for the repression of women, which would have ideally suited a male-dominated society.

Now, I wouldn't try and debate the details of this with you because I'm a theological dunce. I can only judge what I've seen and read. All I can say is that I'm totally sceptical about anything put forward as the word of God that has been subject to human intervention...whether that is the intervention of a king, a pope, a translator, or simply someone interpreting and preaching the text as they see it. Most people in a position of power use it to their advantage.

pattie anne wrote:still, if i can get even one of you "out there ' to begin or to renew a study of God's World, my mission will be accomplished.


Well, consider yourself accomplished! I've added several books to my Amazon list as a result of this debate. Maybe in a few years I'll be up to speed.
"A man's work is nothing but this slow trek to rediscover, through the detours of art, those two or three great and simple images in whose presence his heart first opened."
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby pattie anne on April 9th, 2011, 8:10 pm

good man! two thumbs way way up. :mrgreen:

"You want weapons? We're in a LIBRARY! BOOKS! The best weapons in the world."
Dr Who X

"And if you want the best BOOK in the world to defend yourself with -- look no futher than The Word of God!"
pattie anne

love,
p a :geek:
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby Clara Listensprechen on April 9th, 2011, 8:14 pm

A must to add to any book collection on biblical matters would be The Oxford Annotated Bible, the NIV for its footnotes even though its "translation" is highly questionable, each of the aforementioned versions of non-Protestant Bibles, and the King James Authorized Version (not Standardized or Revised) which includes the Dedication. It's the Dedication which proves claims that it was just another "translation" to be false.
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby Clara Listensprechen on April 9th, 2011, 8:22 pm

pattie anne wrote:That was merely John's way of speking about himself, I told you he was a humble man.
...
Jesus can not lie, He is God.

If Jesus gave Peter powers He gave them to him. Period.

Therefore Matthias was a legitimate replacement Apostle for Judas and not Paul, who was a self-appointed Satanist Apostle (2 Corinthians). Paul is undeniably the Thirteenth Apostle, self-proclaimed, and therefore cannot expect to sit on one of those 12 thrones in judgement over the 12 tribes of Israel. Thank you.
But Peter was born a man, was just a man, he lived his entire life as a human being, and died a man. he was just in a state of Grace when he joined His Lord in heaven.

...
pattie anne :geek:


So was Paul, and yet Jesus chose Peter to bind on earth what was to be bound in heaven. Additionally, you're not mentioning that Paul kicked both Peter and Gospel writer Mark, aka John, totally to the curb either (Acts) and hijacked Christianity from that point, inserting the lion's share of his own writings in the New Testament while Peter (was it really Peter? 2 Peter is Paul restated, after all) gets an honorable mention with two measly memos. Thou protesteth Peter overmuch in defense of Paul.
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby Clara Listensprechen on April 9th, 2011, 8:25 pm

pattie anne wrote:good man! two thumbs way way up. :mrgreen:

"You want weapons? We're in a LIBRARY! BOOKS! The best weapons in the world."
Dr Who X
...

A forest of books carrying the spores of voracious shadows. And books can be written by the insane as well as the sane.

May I point out that we still haven't established which version of Bible is a more authoritative word of God over any of the other versions--and the different versions disagree with each other. Yours, for example, doesn't contain a Psalm 151.
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby pattie anne on April 9th, 2011, 8:27 pm

dear clara listensprechen -

A forest of books carrying the spores of voracious shadows. And books can be written by the insane as well as the sane.


good point, i like that! :mrgreen:

BTW is this the DAMNING page you are talking about?

Image

it on my church website!

and, i knew that about Paul and his letters to the churches. but that's OK. he was a good jew too.

love,
pattie anne :geek:
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby Clara Listensprechen on April 9th, 2011, 8:28 pm

No it is not. The page I refer to is lengthier, considerably.

To the most high and mighty prince, James, by the Grace of God, King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, defender of the Faith, etc.
The Translators of the Bible wish Grace, Mercy, and Peace, through JESUS CHRIST our Lord.

Great and manifold were the blessings, most dread Sovereign, which Almighty God, the Father of all mercies, bestowed upon us the people of England, when first he sent Your Majesty's Royal Person to rule and reign over us. For whereas it was the expectation of many who wished not well unto our Sion, that, upon the setting of that bright Occidental Star, Queen Elizabeth, of most happy memory, some thick and palpable clouds of darkness would so have overshadowed this land, that men should have been in doubt which way they were to walk, and that it should hardly be known who was to direct the unsettled State; the appearance of Your Majesty, as of the Sun in his strength, instantly dispelled those supposed and surmised mists, and gave unto all that were well affected exceeding cause of comfort; especially when we beheld the Government established in Your Highness and Your hopeful Seed, by an undoubted Title; and this also accompanied with peace and tranquility at home and abroad.

But among all our joys, there was no one that more filled our hearts than the blessed continuance of the preaching of God's sacred Word among us, which is that inestimable treasure which excelleth all the riches of earth; because the fruit thereof extendeth itself, not only to the time spent in this transitory world, but directeth and disposeth men unto that eternal happiness which is above in heaven.

Then not to suffer this to fall to the ground, but rather to take it up, and to continue it in that state wherein the famous Predecessor of Your Highness did leave it; nay, to go forward with the confidence and resolution of a man, in maintaining the truth of Christ, and propagating it far and near, is that which hath so bound and firmly knit the hearts of all Your Majesty's loyal and religious people unto You, that Your very name is precious among them: their eye doth behold You with comfort, and they bless You in their hearts, as that sanctified Person, who, under God, is the immediate author of their true happiness. And this their contentment doth not diminish or decay, but every day increaseth and taketh strength, when they observe that the zeal of Your Majesty toward the house of God doth not slack or go backward, but is more and more kindled, manifesting itself abroad in the farthest parts of Christendom, by writing in defence of the truth, (which hath given such a blow unto that Man of Sin as will not be healed,) and every day at home, by religious and learned discourse, by frequenting the house of God, by hearing the Word preached, by cherishing the teachers thereof, by caring for the Church, as a most tender and loving nursing father.

There are infinite arguments of this right Christian and religious affection in Your Majesty; but none is more forcible to declare it to others than the vehement and perpetuated desire of accomplishing and publishing of this work, which now, with all humility, we present unto Your Majesty. For when Your Highness had once, out of deep judgment, apprehended how convenient it was, that, out of the Original sacred Tongues, together with comparing of the labours, both in our own and other foreign languages, of many worthy men who went before us, there should be one more exact translation of the Holy Scriptures into the English Tongue; Your Majesty did never desist to urge and to excite those to whom it was commended, that the Work might be hastened, and that the business might be expedited in so decent a manner, as a matter of such importance might justly require.

And now at last, by the mercy of God, and the continuance of our labours, it being brought unto such a conclusion, as that we have great hopes that the Church of England shall reap good fruit thereby, we hold it our duty to offer it to Your Majesty, not only as to our King and Sovereign, but as to the principal mover and author of the Work; humbly craving of your most Sacred Majesty, that, since things of this quality have ever been subject to the censures of ill-meaning and discontented persons, it may receive approbation and patronage from so learned and judicious a Prince as Your Highness is; whose allowance and acceptance of our labours shall more honour and encourage us than all the calumniations and hard interpretations of other men shall dismay us. So that if, on the one side, we shall be traduced by Popish persons at home or abroad, who therefore will malign us, because we are poor instruments to make God's hold truth to be yet more and more known unto the people, whom they desire still to keep in ignorance and darkness; or if, on the other side, we shall be maligned by self-conceited brethren, who run their own ways, and give liking unto nothing but what is framed by themselves, and hammered on their anvil, we may rest secure, supported within by the truth and innocency of a good conscience, having walked the ways of simplicity and integrity as before the Lord, and sustained without by the powerful protection of Your Majesty's grace and favour, which will ever give countenance to honest and Christian endeavors against bitter censures and uncharitable imputations.

(due to post limits, this must be continued in the next post.)
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby Clara Listensprechen on April 9th, 2011, 8:52 pm

(continued with the next paragraph:)

The Lord of heaven and earth bless Your Majesty with many and happy days; that, as his heavenly hand hath enriched Your Highness with many singular and extraordinary graces, so You may be the wonder of the world in this latter age for happiness and true felicity, to the honour of that great God, and the good of his Church, through Jesus Christ our Lord and only Saviour.

pattie anne, thy God's name is James Stuart.
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