Is All Religion Just Fiction?

[miguel of the moon]

Religion is not necessarily fiction, but the ways people interpret it often is; especially when it is used, as is often the case - especially these days, to commit untold acts of repression and genocide of various members of human populations, to say nothing of our glorious Mother Earth!

In a nutshell: sadly it would seem that loving one's neighbor as thyself is perhaps much easier said than done Certainly it would behoove people to remember the old adage: generosity begins at home.

[pattie anne]

dear Clara Listensprechen -

OK. one at a time.

RE The Tweleve Apostles - all four gospels are correct as they stand.

Simon (AKA Peter)
Andrew (former disciple of John the Baptist brother to Peter)
James
John (brother to James)
Thomas
Matthew (AKA Levi - son of Alphaeus - brother of James) - Matthew is the Greek name Levi the Hebrew
Philip
Bartholomew (AKA Nathanael)
James (the less - son of Alphaeus - brother of Jude)
Jude (AKA Judas or Thaddaeus or Jude of James)
Simon (AKA Zelotes - the Zealot)
Judas Iscariot

people have their given names, and are also referred to by their nicknames and pet names. this was true in Bible times, as well as today. no great puzzle, simply explained, no conflict. only 12 guys.

also Jude who wrote the the NT book of Jude was not the apostle, but the half-brother of Jesus; and James who wrote the the NT book of James was not the apostle, but the half-brother of Jesus. both were converted to the faith AFTER their brother arose from the dead. so even they did not believe who He said He was until after He didn't stay dead, like everyone else on the planet does!

second point, one Apostle John. John was a very gentile man, and was constantly astounded by the fact that his Lord could love such a man as he, and he referred to himself as such, because of his great humilty.

third point, according to Matthew 19:28 and tied in with John's vision in Revelation - 12 thrones for the 12 tribes of Israel (OT coverage) and 12 thrones for the apostles (NT coverage). God made a covenant with BOTH types of people and, both will serves as kings, and servants in heaven on their thrones around The Throne of The Lamb and God the Father, forever. some theologians see the 12 thrones, twice, as being REPRESENTIVE of ALL the redeemed from the two covenants. personally i see them as 12 literal thrones for the twelve sons of Jacob(AKA Israel) and the 11 faithful apostles, and (Saul) Paul. Matthias remember, was chosen to replace Judas by a lot by men. God didn't come to them in a dream, or a cloud or burning bush to "correct" them. i feel He let them do their thing, which God certainly does do sometime.

my use of the word probably, is used facetiously. if you knew me better you would understand. sorry. i will refrain from all "pattie-isms" in all further conversation with you. and will be serious without deviation, thought it certainly IS against my very nature and being. i have found that usually, a little humor when discussing VERY SERIOUS THINGS, seems to make people, less unconfortable. but, for clarity, as you wish, no further humor.

point four.
which trial? He had three that night.

point five - PI=3
as a college math major (always loved Diff EQ) and a christian i don't think so ...i have had to explain this before. where are those old notes? ah, ha! here they are.

Many people reading through the bible having some math
background will often stumble across the 1 Kings 7:23-26
verse set and then claim, "they thought 'pi' is 3.0 in
the bible, but we know that 'pi' is 3.14159265...".

Why would they say this?

To start with, the 1 Kings 7:23-26 verse is describing
a fairly large bowl about 8 feet 4 inches tall sitting
on top of some other fairly large items. The bowl is described
initially by 3 measurements, 2 of which at first glance
seem to be redundant. A 4th dimension is also given
a couple of verses later and this one people often ignore
while instead only focusing on 2 of the 4 given dimensions.

Since "pi" is defined as the "circumference/diameter"
for a circle, the value of "pi" becomes:

pi = circumference/diameter
= 3.14159265...

and when they see the bible give a "compassed it round
about" (circumference) value of 30 and "from the one
brim to the other" (diameter) value of 10, it keys them
to think, "the bible says 'pi' = 30/10 or 3.0, therefore
the bible is saying the Hebrews were very inaccurate as
they'd have to have missed another 1.4 cubits in the
circumference.".

But does the bible claim this?

No.

The bible claims that there is an ADDED brim that is a
"hand width" thick that was added onto the cast metal
bowl. That brim is WIDER than the original bowl.

So let's review the data the bible gives about that bowl:

1. Diameter of the brim to brim edges (10 cubits)
2. Height of the bowl (5 cubits)
3. Circumference of the body of the bowl (30 cubits).
4. Thickness of the brim (one hand width, about 4.5").

(Note: a cubit is 18" to 22" in length)

From these four dimensions the bowl can now be rendered.

now i have a question for you ...

What is the difference between:

the Kingdon of God
and
the Kingdom of Heaven

???

love,
pattie ane

[Graceful Leonard]

ah, gee, just about had my reponse to you finished and my computer lost it. so i will try to reconstruct it.

Many thanks for taking the time to reply, Pattie.

It's very interesting to read your posts, and Clara's, since you both make me realise how little I actually know (I've got lots of reading to do)!

Personally, I can't accept the bible as a literal account because of the number of fundamental discrepancies there are, and these discrepancies often seem to be confirmed by archaeological evidence (or sometimes the lack of it).

Anyway, thanks again, and I continue to read the debate with great interest.

[Clara Listensprechen]

Yes, one at a time to be sure--and first I'll address the matter of Pi because you use a rote response that is even more mathematically inadequate than the initial biblical premise--and you haven't noticed its inadequacy, which tells me your response is by rote.

dear Clara Listensprechen -

OK. one at a time.
...

point five - PI=3
as a college math major (always loved Diff EQ) and a christian i don't think so ...i have had to explain this before. where are those old notes? ah, ha! here they are.

Many people reading through the bible having some math
background will often stumble across the 1 Kings 7:23-26
verse set and then claim, "they thought 'pi' is 3.0 in
the bible, but we know that 'pi' is 3.14159265...".

Why would they say this?

To start with, the 1 Kings 7:23-26 verse is describing
a fairly large bowl about 8 feet 4 inches tall sitting
on top of some other fairly large items. The bowl is described
initially by 3 measurements, 2 of which at first glance
seem to be redundant. A 4th dimension is also given
a couple of verses later and this one people often ignore
while instead only focusing on 2 of the 4 given dimensions.

Since "pi" is defined as the "circumference/diameter"
for a circle, the value of "pi" becomes:

pi = circumference/diameter
= 3.14159265...

and when they see the bible give a "compassed it round
about" (circumference) value of 30 and "from the one
brim to the other" (diameter) value of 10, it keys them
to think, "the bible says 'pi' = 30/10 or 3.0, therefore
the bible is saying the Hebrews were very inaccurate as
they'd have to have missed another 1.4 cubits in the
circumference.".

But does the bible claim this?

No.

The bible claims that there is an ADDED brim that is a
"hand width" thick that was added onto the cast metal
bowl. That brim is WIDER than the original bowl.

So let's review the data the bible gives about that bowl:

1. Diameter of the brim to brim edges (10 cubits)
2. Height of the bowl (5 cubits)
3. Circumference of the body of the bowl (30 cubits).
4. Thickness of the brim (one hand width, about 4.5").

(Note: a cubit is 18" to 22" in length)

From these four dimensions the bowl can now be rendered.
...

The mathematical problems with your thesis are in bold and in red. Measurements aren't rendered, they're enumerated. Ergo the measurements cannot possibly have been what they were reported to be unless Pi = 3.0, and with the parts missing from Pi, you would not have a resulting larger container--you'd have a resulting SMALLER container, measurements of which still wouldn't be as scripture reports.

Yes, I've heard your argument before from other people who are just as inept at math as God is.

[Clara Listensprechen]

dear Clara Listensprechen -

OK. one at a time.
...

now i have a question for you ...

What is the difference between:

the Kingdon of God
and
the Kingdom of Heaven

???

love,
pattie ane

Insofar as I'm a yankee who believes that the people should rule themselves and not in any sort of kingdom, the niggling differences make no difference at all to me--they're both kingdoms and that's a difference that is the same difference to me.

[Clara Listensprechen]

dear Clara Listensprechen -

OK. one at a time.

RE The Tweleve Apostles - all four gospels are correct as they stand.

Simon (AKA Peter)
Andrew (former disciple of John the Baptist brother to Peter)
James
John (brother to James)
Thomas
Matthew (AKA Levi - son of Alphaeus - brother of James) - Matthew is the Greek name Levi the Hebrew
Philip
Bartholomew (AKA Nathanael)
James (the less - son of Alphaeus - brother of Jude)
Jude (AKA Judas or Thaddaeus or Jude of James)
Simon (AKA Zelotes - the Zealot)
Judas Iscariot

people have their given names, and are also referred to by their nicknames and pet names. this was true in Bible times, as well as today. no great puzzle, simply explained, no conflict. only 12 guys.

Then why does the Gospel of John report 14 Apostles? Also, you've done much perhapsing on equating one name with another without biblical basis to do so. Your list introduces a new problem: two Jameses. There is biblical basis to equate just a few of those names but not all of them. Regarding names, there is also the matter of Joses and his other name; Joses was reported as a sibling of Jesus and that's as far as most believers get on that. How about you give it a shot.

also Jude who wrote the the NT book of Jude was not the apostle, but the half-brother of Jesus; and James who wrote the the NT book of James was not the apostle, but the half-brother of Jesus. both were converted to the faith AFTER their brother arose from the dead. so even they did not believe who He said He was until after He didn't stay dead, like everyone else on the planet does!

Now, was this Jude Joses? Do tell, do tell!

second point, one Apostle John. John was a very gentile man, and was constantly astounded by the fact that his Lord could love such a man as he, and he referred to himself as such, because of his great humilty.

Therefore with only one John, the Gospel writer John was NOT an Apostle, as the brother of James was named by Gospel writer John as a person separate from himself. And yet a lion's share of believers would have us believe that the Gospel writer himself was an Apostle. I wonder why that is.

third point, according to Matthew 19:28 and tied in with John's vision in Revelation - 12 thrones for the 12 tribes of Israel (OT coverage) and 12 thrones for the apostles (NT coverage). God made a covenant with BOTH types of people and, both will serves as kings, and servants in heaven on their thrones around The Throne of The Lamb and God the Father, forever. some theologians see the 12 thrones, twice, as being REPRESENTIVE of ALL the redeemed from the two covenants. personally i see them as 12 literal thrones for the twelve sons of Jacob(AKA Israel) and the 11 faithful apostles, and (Saul) Paul. Matthias remember, was chosen to replace Judas by a lot by men. God didn't come to them in a dream, or a cloud or burning bush to "correct" them. i feel He let them do their thing, which God certainly does do sometime.

Interesting how you should proclaim that Apostles are mere men, when Jesus had already determined that what Peter bound on earth would also be bound in heaven. Try again.

[pattie anne]

dear graceful leonard -

as always a gentleman, thank you.

if i could ask one thing of you, however. could you give me an example of a fundamental discrepancy. or i could use the one our minister gave us at our weekly "Dig and Dine with Bro. Larry," last night at Bible study.

still, if i can get even one of you "out there ' to begin or to renew a study of God's World, my mission will be accomplished.


*******************************************************

dear Clara Listensprechen -

RE pi ...

i told you it was from old notes. but here is another one from the jewish side this time:

Here is the quote being referred to:

"And he [Hiram] made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one rim to the other it was round all about, and...a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about....And it was an hand breadth thick...." — First Kings, chapter 7, verses 23 and 26

The bowl is said to have had a circumference of thirty cubits and a diameter of ten cubits. The diameter is said to be "from one rim to the other", so this would be the outer diameter; that is, the diameter of the outer mold used to make the bowl.

The circumference is not specified as being the inner or outer circumference, but since using the outer circumference would give us the "ideal" bowl (with no width or thickness), let's instead use the inner circumference, which also, reasonably, would have been the circumference of the mold used to form the inside of the bowl. That is, we will use the two measurements which were necessary for the casting of the piece. Copyright © Elizabeth Stapel 2002-2011 All Rights Reserved
Using eighteen inches for one cubit, we have the following:

outer diameter: 10 cubits, or 180 inches
outer radius: 5 cubits, or 90 inches
inner circumference: 30 cubits, or 540 inches

To find the "Jewish" or "Bible" value for pi, we need to have the inner radius. Once we have that value, we can plug it into the formula for the circumference and compare with the given circumference value of 540 inches.

Since the thickness of the bowl is given as one handsbreadth, then the inner radius must be:

90 – 4 = 86 inches

Let's do the calculations:

inner radius: 86 inches
inner circumference: 540 inches

The circumference formula is C = 2(pi)r, which gives us:

540 = 2(pi)(86)
540 = 172(pi)

Solving, we get pi = 540/172 = 135/43 = 3.1395348837..., or about 3.14.

Isn't "3.14" the approximation we all use for pi? perhaps those Phoenicians were fairly accurate after all.

RE John. John was the son of Zebadee, so was his brother James. they were fishermen of Capernaum. John wrote Revelations, the Gospel of John, and the letters John I, II and III. you are trying to make hard what is easy and simple. And the apostles were just human beings, men just like the ones walking around on the earth today. not some super creation. Jesus was the only divine one among them. what does make them special and entitled to 12 thrones, and special powers, is their relationship with The Christ. NOTHING in of of themselves.

and you never answered my question about WHICH trial?

and i can only find 5 named apostles in John. which chapter and verse, please.

as to how and why i grouped the 12 as i did, it was for clarity and conciseness. but if any one cared to search out all four gospels, and compared them, and see how they all tie together, i believe my patten will emerge. but you will have to spend a lot of time to do so, just as i have. and the down side of that is?

love,
pattie anne

[Clara Listensprechen]

You caught me in the middle of posting replies and I hadn't gotten to that yet. Gimme a chance.

As to the Apostles, you have:

RE The Tweleve Apostles - all four gospels are correct as they stand.

Simon (AKA Peter)
Andrew (former disciple of John the Baptist brother to Peter)
James
John (brother to James)
Thomas
Matthew (AKA Levi - son of Alphaeus - brother of James) - Matthew is the Greek name Levi the Hebrew
Philip
Bartholomew (AKA Nathanael)
James (the less - son of Alphaeus - brother of Jude)
Jude (AKA Judas or Thaddaeus or Jude of James)
Simon (AKA Zelotes - the Zealot)
Judas Iscariot

The second James fails to appear in other rosters, while his daddy appears in the Gospel of John as an Apostle. The Gospel writer John does make a pretense at being himself an Apostle, most notably toward the end of his Gospel when he claims to have overheard an argument between Peter and Jesus.

==========

Oh gee, I almost forgot--you've jumped from your beloved Standardized Protestant Bible to Jewish text and they are different. Explain your conversion from Christianity to Judaism on this Pi matter.

[pattie anne]

dear Clara Listensprechen -

take all the time you need, i was just responding to what you had said so far.

love,
pattie anne

PS: you didn't seem to like my christian notes so i turned to the old testament (which is TOTALLY jewish) to see how they responded with their PI problem. BTW the KJV of that verse reads:

And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: [it was] round all about, and his height [was] five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

p. a.

2PS: have to go clean my floors back in about one hour.

p.

[Clara Listensprechen]

Up to question is your faith in a severally-revised version of the King James Authorized Bible, which you said was authoritative, and up to question is your excuse for your favorite Bible's mess-up of the Pi issue. Unless you're Jewish, it's out of order to make a Jewish argument and it's on you to admit that the fault is in the Bible you claim is authoritative, as evidenced by your resorting to Jewish scripture. It's not a matter of whether I like your notes or not--it's a matter of simple accuracy.

Now, as to what Jesus was wearing, I do need to make a correction--he didn't wear the garbery TO trial, but was forcibly dressed in it after the trial. The trial in question was presided over by Pilot, a thing that puts a literalist into a quandry as to which was literally true.

I do need to make another correction of a statement I made about James' daddy being the John-designated Apostle. He wasn't, but it was a different guy named Joseph.