Is All Religion Just Fiction?

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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby Clara Listensprechen on April 7th, 2011, 11:14 pm

pattie anne wrote:Oh, absolutely.

Religion is man reaching UP to God ...

by prayers, fasting, through prophets, correct dress codes, belonging to a particular group, eating right, being baptized, doing good works, the taking of communion, whatever.

Christianity on the other hand is not a religion, it is a relationship with God's Son.

It is God reaching DOWN to man.
...

And if God is everywhere, that makes no sense. If God is almighty, he can just say "I forgive mankind" without all that bloody barbaric drama with a son and his fancying a pretty young girl like the crassest of carnal cads.

The bits about dress and food codes is just an expression of power, as in, the ones who have power say "jump" and the followers ask "how high?"

BTW the only way we can learn about this FREE gift of eternal salvation is though the Holy Bible.

Which version?
innerant, God-breathed, God inspired, infalliable (translated: without error or contradiction) IN THE ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS. [OT in Hebrew, NT in Greek.] With the KJV being our most reliable SOURCE.

There is no such thing as "original manuscripts" and you have but to refer to the introduction to any Standardized version of Bible to see this. If the KJAV is the most reliable source, why do today's scholars call it faulty and have preferred Standardized versions as superior?
The Bible says over and over again both HEAVEN and HELL are very real places. Jesus' first public sermon was on Hell.

Such statements mark you as a Literalist--you take what a Bible says as being literally true. This means that if anyone notices your use of any biblical content as metaphorical, you're off your own limits.

Metaphorists like to have things both ways, as it happens, and you can count on me to call 'em on that. For instance: if biblical scripture is metaphorical, then Jesus and Hell aren't real either, as they're metaphors.

Tread carefully.
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby Clara Listensprechen on April 7th, 2011, 11:30 pm

Moderator wrote:Dear Pattie Anne -

Phew!

When philipdalton said he wanted to have a debate, I was really hoping that is what it would be, lots of different opinions from both sides of the aisle. But after the first page, didn't see much chance of that happening. Then came page two. I do believe you have evened things out, ah, slightly. And thought I doubt you will have much effect on anyone who has posted here, we do have a sizable group of lurkers and fence sitters. So I look forward to the next round.

Best,
Dirk :ugeek:

PS: You have established what version of the Bible you put your faith in P. A., so what is your spin on demons, devils, angels, and gods?

D. G.

2PS: Maybe so much thought about religion of late philipdalton, as Easter is this month. :?: :?: :?: Though I don't ever remember it being so late in the year.

D.

Well, thanks alot--you're looking to promote a single pro-Anglican Bible point of view, I see. As it happens, bringing up the KJAV doesn't level anything, as it puts Orthodox, Catholic, Syriac, Chaldean etc Bibles as being inferior. That's not leveling things even when one's imagination is stretched.
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby Clara Listensprechen on April 7th, 2011, 11:34 pm

Graceful Leonard wrote:
Toothy Grin wrote:Yes. All religion is a fiction. And what a mess it's made of the world.


Religion hasn't made a mess of the world -- certain people have made a mess of the world by using religion as an excuse to wage war and impose their perverted sense of morality.

If religion ceased to exist tomorrow, such people would simply find other means to justify their actions and subjugate the fearful and gullible.


Very true, but what must be admitted is that religion is an historically reliable, effective way of doing that.

Conversely, what also must be recognized, is that religion is no guarantee against corruption and in fact fosters it, and this is in spite of all its preachings about what's good and what's evil. Evil gets committed by religion regardless of how close to God or how "true" it claims to be.
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby Clara Listensprechen on April 7th, 2011, 11:43 pm

pattie anne wrote:...
1) if you, dear Members of TOM, are right and i am wrong, nothing BAD will happen to any of us, ever, right? but if i, in my minority, is the one WHO is right, guess WHO has a BIG problem?
...

Nobody. What exactly recommends a God who makes people gamble on things as a God in the first place? You've touched on the Free Choice argument and have, instead, presented a Hobson's Choice. Just thought I'd point that out.
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby Graceful Leonard on April 8th, 2011, 12:17 am

Clara Listensprechen wrote:
Graceful Leonard wrote:
Toothy Grin wrote:Yes. All religion is a fiction. And what a mess it's made of the world.


Religion hasn't made a mess of the world -- certain people have made a mess of the world by using religion as an excuse to wage war and impose their perverted sense of morality.

If religion ceased to exist tomorrow, such people would simply find other means to justify their actions and subjugate the fearful and gullible.


Very true, but what must be admitted is that religion is an historically reliable, effective way of doing that.


Unquestionably.

Clara Listensprechen wrote:Conversely, what also must be recognized, is that religion is no guarantee against corruption and in fact fosters it, and this is in spite of all its preachings about what's good and what's evil. Evil gets committed by religion regardless of how close to God or how "true" it claims to be.


Yes, I agree that religion can foster, or at least provides a haven for, the corrupt/power-hunger, and it certainly doesn't provide any guarantee of good character!

You say 'evil gets committed by religion...' -- my concern is that we can be sidetracked by blaming religion in general, rather than holding specific people to account for their actions.
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby Clara Listensprechen on April 8th, 2011, 2:10 am

Graceful Leonard wrote:
Clara Listensprechen wrote:Conversely, what also must be recognized, is that religion is no guarantee against corruption and in fact fosters it, and this is in spite of all its preachings about what's good and what's evil. Evil gets committed by religion regardless of how close to God or how "true" it claims to be.


Yes, I agree that religion can foster, or at least provides a haven for, the corrupt/power-hunger, and it certainly doesn't provide any guarantee of good character!

You say 'evil gets committed by religion...' -- my concern is that we can be sidetracked by blaming religion in general, rather than holding specific people to account for their actions.

One cannot separate the religion from the people whose convenience religion serves: the ruling class. This goes to the heart of why English kings had problems with Rome, and why the Anglican religion was invented. And the Anglican religion isn't alone in that, for this is why there are a bazilliion different, disparate denominations, NONE of which can claim to be the sole authoritative provably God-sourced religion.

This brings us back to the first post in this thread as to whether or not God exists at all. Whereas we've been confining ourselves to Christianity, we're necessarily talking about Abraham's God, the God of all the other Abrahamic religions, not just Christianity's. Now--does Abraham's God exist? All the disparate versions of Bible, supposedly based on "original script" which also has many disparate versions, indicate that the answer is NO.
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby pattie anne on April 9th, 2011, 3:28 am

dear graceful leonard -

ah, gee, just about had my reponse to you finished and my computer lost it. so i will try to reconstruct it.

how literal do i take the Bible?

i take it very literally.

God created our fourth-dimensional world of Space and Time in SIX literal days. On the seventh day He rested from all that creating, but He did not rest from being God.

Adam and Eve were the very first humans on the earth, and they walked and talked with a pre-incarnate Jesus/God in the garen of Eden (literal place).

Jonah was literally three days and three nights in the belly of a great fish, and when the fish spat him out he believed, boy did he ever believe!

"Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the fiery furnace were tossed," and lived to tell the tale, probably because of that fourth guy WHO suddenly appeard with them in the flames - yup, Jesus again. (unfortunatley the three guards WHO tossed the three hebrew children in, died shortly aftewards, from their severe burns.)

Noah had a ark, and three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth (from whom all human beings on the earth today descended from). and though i do not own a piece of that boat, i do believe it was REAL. thought i must say owing a piece of the ark would be nice.

so, the way i understand things, if a person, a place, or a thing, is NAMED in the Bible, it was a true historical fact.

Abrahan, Issac, Jacob - real.

Ruth, Queen Ester, Deborah - real.

BTW a lot of christian denominations say the story of the rich man and lazareth is a parable (object lesson) but i say it was a true, literal telling as lazareth was named.

now, for something that i believe is representational in the Bible, thought it too, has a very literal meaning, the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. they represent the anti-christ, a real man that will come to earth one day to rule. evangelical christians like myself say this TIME is very close now. so close we can almost hear "the approaching hoof-beats".

White Horse and Rider: repesents the anti-christ coming as a conquerer with a bow, without arrows (meaning he will come to rule, but not by force, as we usually understand force).

Red Horse and Rider: seen by most of the world as a man of PEACE, the anti-christ will still use WAR when necessary to further his agenda.

Black Horse and Rider: the anti-christ will also bring famine and plague to the world.

Pale Horse: the anti-christ (or his minions) will kill one fourth of mankind to accomplish his new world order.

and one personal note about that pale horse of revelation, chapter 6 KJV:

the KJV calles him a pale horse but the original greek word is chloris which is the greek word for green. so what we really have is a GREEN HORSE for horse number four. something else that is most interesting about this pale/green horse is that MOST artists illustrate him as green! :shock: hum .. fast track to God, among creative people?

but have i inadvertently DISPROVED the Bible wrong with this? absolutely not! the innerrantcy is in the greek and hebrew texts, not in any latin, english, french or german translation. once again the archaeologists have come to the rescue, and as we find ever older and older COPIES of the original hebrew and greek texts, the WORDS in them are almost identical, and more importantly, the MESSAGE has not in any way altered. SEE books on the Dead Sea scrolls, modern manuscript discoveries, ETC. but i do sincerely believe the KJV is the BEST translation/copy we have to read, study and discern from. but as pointed out earlier, only the ORIGINALS (which someone pointed out correctly, no longer exist -that we know of-) are the ones totally without error. but the best argument i have for putting my FAITH and belief in the KJV is, God said His Word would always exist for people wishing to obtain His wisdom and His good pleasure. And if that promise is true (which it is, like ALL His promises) He has to provide me a book i can read and understand. which BTW He has.

**************************

dear Clara Listensprechen -

God is everywhere! as our TOM said once: "He is even up the leg of Mrs. Piermont's trousers!" which BTW was absolutley true.

of course I am a literalist! proudly. if you make the Bible non-literal, you can make it say anything you wish, which would make it totally useless, especially RE SALVATION purposes, anyWHO.

a TOTALLY righteous God can not forgive sin. sin has to be paid for. sin was paid for in full for mankind 2000 years ago on the cross of golgatha by Jesus Christ.

and there had to be ORIGINAL documents, sometime in the past, otherwise we wouldn't have their COPIES today.

au contraire, Jesus spoke in extended metaphors, He called them parables they are very good object lessons, eventhough they are made up stories.

most theologins and Bible scholars are being taught wrong at the seminary level. sadly, the same can be said of many of my own denonation's (Southern Baptist) colleges, so of course i can no longer agree with them. take out the Blood of Christ from your teaching, and the Trinity, and the Rapture, and the Virgin Birth, and Hell, and The Judgement ... well, then you just have another RELIGION. the RELATIONSHIP with a personal God, who loved you so much that He was willing to die for you, is totally lost.

******************************************

love,
pattie anne
Last edited by pattie anne on April 9th, 2011, 4:46 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby Clara Listensprechen on April 9th, 2011, 4:23 am

If you believe the KJAV Bible literally, then please do explain why the four Gospels can't agree on the names of the Twelve Apostles and then explain which of the 4 Gospels can be believed literally at the exclusion of the others--and then explain why you believe your choice is the correct literal roster?

How many Johns were Apostles? If you believe that Gospel-writer John was "the apostle Jesus loved" then you also believe that there were two Apostles named John...and do you believe he didn't love the other 11?

Jesus said that there would be 12 thrones for 12 Apostles to sit in judgement of the 12 tribes of Israel--so given that Paul is the thirteenth Apostle, do you literally believe that God's going to have a game of Celestial Musical Chairs to determine who gets to sit in those 12 thrones? Or do you literally believe that Jesus was wrong when he said that and God's going to add that lucky thirteenth throne to the mix even though he didn't say so in your Bible? I note with interest your loose use of the word "probably" to explain stuff.

When Jesus went to trial, did he literally wear red, or did he literally wear purple?

Why do you literally believe that Pi = 3.0 even though science has proven The Bible wrong about that? Many arguments in favor of Intelligent Design depend on your answer to this, because if intricate mathematics is supposed to prove an intelligence, it also proves that whatever intelligence that may have been responsible was NOT Abraham's God, who was not just bad at math but bad at design and bad at basic counting.

I have many other questions of this sort for literalists, but these are what I'm the most curious about.
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby Moderator on April 9th, 2011, 5:00 am

Well, thanks alot--you're looking to promote a single pro-Anglican Bible point of view, I see. As it happens, bringing up the KJAV doesn't level anything, as it puts Orthodox, Catholic, Syriac, Chaldean etc Bibles as being inferior. That's not leveling things even when one's imagination is stretched.


Dear Clara L.

No, not at all. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. Other than one possile posting, it seemed everyone on page one was just agreeing with each other, which is very nice when people can do that. But it makes for a terribly, even dreadfully, boring, debate.

Please, you Members of Tom who put their faith and trust in the versions Clara mentioned, or in any of the others, EX: "The Living Bible", NIV, etc.; please step forward and state you case for the record.

Better?

Best,
Dirk :ugeek:
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Re: Is All Religion Just Fiction?

Postby Clara Listensprechen on April 9th, 2011, 5:12 am

Yes indeed. I would particularly like to hear from Chaldeans, Syriac Christians, Orthodox and Roman Catholic as to the merits of proclaiming the King James Authorized Version as superior to their Bibles, as I expect they would disagree.

A new development on the version front has just taken place in this thread, and that is the believer in the "King James Version" has stated that she's also a Baptist, so it's highly doubtful that she's using the King James Authorized at all, but is actually using a Standardized Protestant Bible modeled after the King James. Between the King James Authorized version and the current Standardized Protestant Bible came numerous revisions of the Authorized, not the least of which was the removal of the Dedication page.

By the way, the NIV is used by multiple denominations and it is a "translation" that is a radical departure not just from the King James Authorized, but also the King James Revised, etc versions preceding its inception. For example, it claims that Paul's ship was wrecked by a northeaster in the Mediterranean. The Mediterranean doesn't get nor'easters, especially not on the west coast of the Levant. A nor'easter is a peculiarity of North America's Atlantic coast. The EAST coast, of course.
Last edited by Clara Listensprechen on April 9th, 2011, 5:22 am, edited 3 times in total.
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