Ranters room

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Re: Ranters room

Postby tch on July 9th, 2011, 4:26 pm

Quick PS:

Gridlock ruined the Macra? How? The show reminded several million fans that the Macra actually existed and there's a million years between the two stories, plenty of room to do other stories.

Plus, I love the idea that originally the monster in the mist was vague and it was David Tennant that said 'Could they be Macra?'
Gotta love a man that geeky.
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Re: Ranters room

Postby The Cloaked One on July 9th, 2011, 8:34 pm

Yay, 100 post!

A sort of impasse. XD We just have two different ways of looking at it. You're more of a casual viewer and anything restored in the new series falls under 'there's no such thing as bad publicity.'

I'm a writer myself, I look more at the original intents of the writers who first created the episodes, the highlights of the monsters, and then compare. The Macra were supposed to be a ferocious creature, even sneakier than the Cybermen. They were ingenious, manipulative, and blood thirsty. In Gridlock, 40 years since they're last appearance, they were degenerated into large mindless creatures in the mist. More or less the complete opposite of what they were. This was not a 'turning an idea on its head concept,' it was completely different. They might as well have given it a new name like they did the Ood which are similar to the Sensorites.

I strongly wish I could write for Doctor Who, but most of my ideas would be rejected even if they were to be looked out. I would be returning to the Old Who serial standards. So, no matter how much I rant *yay for ranting* there's not much I can do. Even if I convinced You, tch, and everyone else on this board, it wouldn't do much anything unless you guys go on to write for Who yourselves. Tis a rant and that's all it is. I apologize if I offended you or MCH.

Oh, and the 10th is definitely geeky, that's why he's awesome. :D
Si-Fy and Fantasy, that is where my heart lies. To Doctor Who and its 18 years of brilliance, still waiting on the 50 yr anniversary!
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Re: Ranters room

Postby The Cloaked One on July 9th, 2011, 8:58 pm

A few corrections on my part. Doctor Who had 12 million viewers for 'The End of Time' 10.81 million for 'Rose.'
Tennant had one episode that had more viewers than even Tom Baker's most viewed episode. I'll have to go through the information again to get more names and numbers.
Right now Matt Smith's audience averaged 7 million for the first year and is between 6-5 million in the current. This makes a lot more sense to me, that's the size Patrick Troughton dealt with through his years. Pertwee started with 8 million and worked up to 10-12 million before Baker took it up to 18 million.
6-5 million is not exactly the danger zone of cancellation, Davidson went down to 6 million by the end of his tenure, Colin Baker brought it down between 4-5 million for his tenure and McCoy kept it there until the plug was pulled. So the show can still certainly climb back up.
Si-Fy and Fantasy, that is where my heart lies. To Doctor Who and its 18 years of brilliance, still waiting on the 50 yr anniversary!
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Re: Ranters room

Postby tch on July 9th, 2011, 9:51 pm

'Casual viewer'?
my wife wishes I was just casual about Doctor Who.
I see anything restored in the new series as 'Oh cool! Sontarions!" or 'Wow, an actual army of Daleks! Not just the four we usually see!" or some other geeky exclamation and then pause the DVD and give my kids a brief history lesson on the old show till they yell at me to 'just let us watch the show!'

There is such a thing as bad publicity, I saw the new Silurian designs. No third eye and a six foot tongue? and you think the Macra got a raw deal?!

Not only did they screw the Silurians up, now they can't bring back the Draconions without fans yelling or a major redesign.

And as a writer myself, I can easily see where the million year gap between Macra episodes gives you plenty of room to explain it, and do stories featuring both versions.
It's nopt meant as disrespect to the original writers it's the new writers going 'We need a monster here. You know what might be fun? Let's use an old obscure monster and see who notices."
Or 'Let's put a 'name' monster here and see if gives the episode a boost.
The old series did it all the time.
Both Tom Baker Sontarion episodes came about that way.

No offense taken, as if you ever get a job writing for Who, I will busy sucking up on the off chance you'll hire me.

As I've said, I love all Who and with each new Doctor or era the show has changed, and that's part of the joy of the show. I don't see the new show as bad or disrespectful, just different.

and it baffles me when I can see so many of the things Russell and Moffat stole... ahem...paid homage to from the old show and then hear people scream that they don't get Who.
They get Who and are getting credit from people who never saw the old show to know that they are not creating stuff, but mining the shows rich history.
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Re: Ranters room

Postby The Cloaked One on July 10th, 2011, 2:50 am

Ok.

The Silurians did not bother me too much. Definite costume change, they claimed they were not Silurians, but related, and then preceded to have a copy paste plot with both Pertwee's dealings with the Silurians. Both times Pertwee convinces the leader that peace can be made, both times things go terribly wrong and the colony is destroyed. This time Smith successfully convinces the leader and the leader ends up killing the rebels and forcing everyone else to sleep for I forget how long.

I've never read any of the novels, my opinion is only based off of things I have heard. That can be taken with a pinch of salt, I do not have sufficient research.

With the million year gap, how have humans changed? How have Daleks changed? How have timelords or most any other creatures changed? Very little, to have the Macra as the one exception going from being about the size of a horse to being large than sky scrapers was a bit too much. A name drop is not too much from Tennent, but he might also have just said, 'might these guys be related to the Macra?' Make a joke or something.

Tom Baker was very good at having new creatures virtually every serial. Daleks even got Davros as a nice addition. The Sontarons, introduced in Pertwee's final season, got another appearance, but not a reimagining. Same again in the Two Doctors. The Nu Who Sontarons kept the appearance close enough that I could easily recognize them as Sontarons. Sontarons were all about the strategem and having everything exacted out in Old Who. They were powerful and cruel. They were not, however, doing war chants and wanting to die on the battle field.

It's true the previous occasions were mostly scouts, the Nu Who could be a branch of Sontarons, a group directly from a war front or something, it's not impossible, I just did not think it was quite adequately explained for a number of the changes made. While this was 'good' mining from Nu Who, even getting a 'are you my mummy' as a nice joke, the newer changes just did not seem to make the cut. Just play it straight like the last x number of times, keep the Sontaron charm.

You're right in that each era changed. The first four Doctors really did good building on each other. For me, the Fifth Doctor was the first to break the chain. While he did reference things from the previous 4, he was unable to do anything with most any of them. Arc of Infinity had the reappearance of the Guardian with a rather goofy outfit and his plan simply did not add up to anything. Earthshock with the reappearance of the Cybermen was a disservice to them, same with Revenge of the Cybermen. More disservice to the Doctor though for the actions he took in the respective episodes.

Ironically, although Troughton is my favorite Doctor, many of his episodes I did not like the writing. I liked Troughton's ability to always be able to make good humor and get me to laugh at least once per serial no matter what was happening. A very talented actor, Jamie was awesome as well. Davidson and Matt Smith looked up to Troughton, just as Tennent looks up to Davidson as well. Though Smith's outfit is a lot more obvious than Tennent's glasses. I've seen a number of parallels between Nu Who writing and Troughton's era specifically, plot threads that the Third and Fourth had dropped completely and I had hoped would remain untouched.

If Nu Who wanted to pick up from the first Four, they ought to do as the First Four did. Mostly original episodes with the occasional reappearance of a previous foe. Even the Master got that treatment, being a followup of the Warlord from the War Games, given so many many appearances during Pertwee's era and only four during Baker's. The Timelords were given the same treatment, only a few appearances during Pertwee's era and Baker's tenure.
The Daleks, the Cybermen the same. Unit was expanded greatly on in Pertwee's era from Troughton's, but almost forgotten during Baker's.

So far, there has been no successor to Tom Baker. The closest used to be McCoy, now is Tennent (in his own acting, strong presence).
Si-Fy and Fantasy, that is where my heart lies. To Doctor Who and its 18 years of brilliance, still waiting on the 50 yr anniversary!
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Re: Ranters room

Postby tch on July 10th, 2011, 3:26 am

Lots to get through:

The redesign of the Silurians tainted that episode for me, which is a shame as it was a nice continuation of the themes of distrust between races from the Pertwee stories.
And it has the classic 'Are you afraid of the monsters?' "No, they're afraid of me.' exchange, but I can't get past the pointless redesign. Tongues longer than the length of their bodies?

Humans have not changed physically through Who history, unless you count the cave men from Unearthly Child evolving into modern man, but we have seen Earth go from a galactic backwater, to a space traveling Federation, to a broken up bunch of scattered colonies to a patch of skin stretched on a big frame to possibly ending up as heads in metal ****.
WE have seen the rise and fall of human history, which seems to be what we see in the Macra.

Though, I don't have a problem with the Macra, as I wonder what happened in between and see tons of story potential in either evil crabs with dreams of empire, or giant rampadging crabs.

personally, I don't get why the Sontarions are now short, but it's a decent looking redesign and they have the feel of a militaristic warrior culture.
Now, if we could see them fight some actual Rutans! We hear about the War but have never actually ever seen a Sontarion fight a Rutan.
Moffat! Give the Daleks a rest and build a finale around the war between the Sontarions and Rutans.

I do love that Smith is acting like a very old man in a very young body, but seems to be channeling Troughton.

Davidson worked for me as he was a nice change from Tom's more eccentric Doctor. Davidson was a bit quieter, gentler and he was the last Doctor to have companions that weren't just 'girls from now'.
Lord, I would kill for the new show to try something new for companions. A histortical companion, an alien, a tin dog!
Anything, but yet another cute girl from now.

Think I'm starting to ramble.
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Re: Ranters room

Postby The Cloaked One on July 10th, 2011, 9:33 am

Ah feel free to ramble. I do, a lot. XD Well, off to watch The Next Generation, I'm just starting, I hear its the best series of the lot. Sad to hear NASA shutting down though.
Si-Fy and Fantasy, that is where my heart lies. To Doctor Who and its 18 years of brilliance, still waiting on the 50 yr anniversary!
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Re: Ranters room

Postby MCH on July 10th, 2011, 12:09 pm

I enjoyed the next generation very much.
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Re: Ranters room

Postby tch on July 10th, 2011, 7:32 pm

At the risk of starting new argument, while I like Next Generation, I think Deep Space Nine was the better written show.
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Re: Ranters room

Postby MCH on July 10th, 2011, 8:20 pm

Lol, I'm not a writer. Not picky about such things really. Only, if the story really stinks I tend to avoid it. I watched Deep Space Nine until they went on about the shape shifters people being mass murderers or sme such. I liked the Ferenge sp? And that bejoran gal. But I loved watching captain piccard and data. And number ones swagger, lol.

I grew up on Classic Trek. First watched it in black and white in the sixties. Oops, showing my age, lol.

The ranters room is for discussions. Well, or ranting, lol. No worries.

I typed a bit and thought I posted it but it isn't here. Drat! Oh well. Maybe later.

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